(Ich and Cichs) Really need some help from patient people.

andy5268 · Nov 13, 2004

Hi I’m Andy, been off the board for a while, other interests (cars) are taking I’m my message board time these days… but I do know where to turn for help and find good people.

I’ve been keeping fish for around 7 years now, I have 110 gallon tank with mainly passive large cichlids, many of them from Jeff Rapps so their names escape me except to say again they are docile kind of like sevrums. I’ve had this tank up for years and hardly ever lose a fish; lately I seem to be battling ich and other similar diseases. Any new fish I buy comes up with the symptoms in a day or so and usually takes out a clown loach or two some of which are very mature. I treat the ich by raising the temp and when it’s bad adding rid ich but only a half of a dose to protect the clowns.

I do water changes every two weeks, one with a gravel siphon the next just 30% of the water (any more and the tank gets cloudy like I’m taking out too much beneficial bacteria). All water parameters are OK from my master test kit and I have a Fluval 204 and 404 doing the filtering, the 204 maybe getting a bit tired (it’s 4 years old) so I’m replacing it with a new 404, air is via two Rena air 400s (biggest they make) hooked up to a bubble wall that runs the length of the tank. PH is at a pretty steady 7.2, tank is not over crowded but likely close to it’s limit and my fish are fed cich pellets, frozen blood worms and dried krill once a day.

I’m looking for people to really focus in on this, not just easy answers, I’ve likely lost close to $350 in stock over the last few months and all of my clowns are gone having to Secom from some slimy decease that turn them dark with in a day rapid breathing and then boom gone in 24 hours.

I appreciate the read here folks, lots of info and I hope enough if not let me know and I’ll answer any questions you have.

Thanks!!!

Andy

daveedka · Nov 13, 2004

Ich needs to be treated for at least a week after the last signs of it on your fish, it cannot be killed while encysted on the fish or in the substrate. There are many methids available, rid ich is one of them and with hardy fish it usually works quite well. it is definately lethal to ich, but with less than hardy or sensative fish it is really hard on them as well. This is an article I use a lot, and one of many I have read. It is worth the time it takes to read it and explains things very well. Ich is something that can easily be irradicated from your tank permanently, and unless introduced again with a new fish it won't ever be an issue again.
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml

As far as the water changes, I would do more even if it causes cloudiness. the water really houses very little bacteria, the nitrifying bacteria need a surface to cling to, therefore they are in your media, tank decor, upper leves of your substrate etc. Not really in the water so water changes won't effect them much at all. Frequent water changes will reduce organics, and in the case of ich meds reduced arganics is a good idea (see article) with salt and heat treatment, the organics don't matter as much.
The one benefit that frequent vaccuming during treatment has is that it removes a lot of the ich cysts from the tank and allows less to hatch and look for a host. I will check back on this thread if you have any questions, the article does really cover most things pretty well.

The cloudiness could have many causes, I will defer that to others who may have more experience in that regard.
dave

NickH · Nov 14, 2004

The above advice for eliminating ick was very good, however, I'd like to add a little to prevent this from happening again.

First off, make sure you get a quarantine tank setup. Never add fish to an established tank without putting it in quarantine for at least 2 weeks. If the fish comes down with something you can treat it by itself in the smaller tank (say, 20 gallons), save on the amount of medicine, prevent disrupting the bio-filter in your main tank and save your established fish. It also lets you use medications on the cichlids that would be detrimental to your clown loaches (like copper). Once your fish is 100% healthy then you can add it to your show tank.

Second, I would change your water maintenance routine. Do 25% water changes weekly, and only vacuum 50% of the gravel monthly. The reason for your cloudy water is you are upsetting the bacteria colonies in your filters and in your gravel.

When you get your second Fluval 404, don't clean your original 404 for at least a month to let the bacteria catch up in that filter. Then, never clean both filters at the same time. Make sure you leave a month inbetween cleaning each filter, because when you clean them you are wiping out the bacteria in the filter. This should prevent the cloudy water in the future.

You might want to think about getting a different type of filter than a canister, like a wet/dry or a Marineland Emporer 400, so that you don't have to disturb the nitrifying bacteria when you clean the mechanical filters.

daveedka · Nov 14, 2004

NickH,
I fully agree with the q-tank for future,
But in this case the main tank needs to be treated to erradicate the ich once and for all. Just added that to prevent confusion.

Second, I would change your water maintenance routine. Do 25% water changes weekly, and only vacuum 50% of the gravel monthly. The reason for your cloudy water is you are upsetting the bacteria colonies in your filters and in your gravel.

I strongly disagree with this quote. water changes have no effect on your bio-filter unless you fail to dechlorinate. More water changes equal a cleaner tank, and cleaner tanks equal healthier environment for your fish. The bacteria is as said primarily in the gravel and filter, it clings to surfaces and won't be easily vaccumed away. The only way you might vaccum out a significant quantity is if you have so much mulm in the tank that the bacteria lives on the mulm because oxygen is not available to the other permanent surfaces. in the case of a tank with that much debris, then smaller daily water changes and partial vaccumings would be in order to rectify that situation without destroying the entire colony at once. In this case as well you will probably have to deal with cloudy water during the clean-up efforts, not due to bacteria problems, but due to suspended debris in the water.
Dave

Banger · Nov 14, 2004

very informative brains on this site....
mbz

NickH · Nov 14, 2004

I strongly disagree with this quote. water changes have no effect on your bio-filter unless you fail to dechlorinate. More water changes equal a cleaner tank, and cleaner tanks equal healthier environment for your fish.

Right, and I advised him to increase his water change interval. However, when he stirs up the gravel, this will release detritus and other debris into the water. He wasn't specific as to what color this "cloudyness" is, but if it is a white color it could be from free-floating bacteria bloom. I have experienced this as well and I had to stop rearranging the tank and disturbing the gravel until this phenomenon stopped. No amount of water changes would eliminate this, the condition would just be reproduced in 24 - 48 hours. If his cloudyness is a greenish color, it is from free-floating algea that occurs from having a high nutrient level in the tank combined with leaving the light on too long. No amount of water changes will clean this up on it's own (not that he should stop doing them). You have to lay off the food and reduce the light intervals on the tank.

So, if you re-read my post you will see that I recommended more frequent water changes, just performed a little differently. Honestly Daveedka, sometimes I think you like to disagree with people just to have something to write about. Aquaria is an art as well as a science, you should be a little more open to other people's experience.

daveedka · Nov 14, 2004

So, if you re-read my post you will see that I recommended more frequent water changes, just performed a little differently. Honestly Daveedka, sometimes I think you like to disagree with people just to have something to write about. Aquaria is an art as well as a science, you should be a little more open to other people's experience.

Fair enough, I saw what you reccomended Nick, I didn't realize that it was more than he was already doing, because I didn't recall how infrequent his were. As far as argueing, I'll be glad to quit posting altogether, I only spend my time here to help folks and to stop a lot of common myths like the myth that water changes will hurt your bacteria. With All knowing experts like you around, I'm sure I won't be missed.
dave

NickH · Nov 14, 2004

As far as argueing, I'll be glad to quit posting altogether, I only spend my time here to help folks and to stop a lot of common myths like the myth that water changes will hurt your bacteria. With All knowing experts like you around, I'm sure I won't be missed.

Where's the violin? Obviously, I am just trying to help people as well. I am not the all knowing expert. I also don't cut people off at the knees whenever they make a post!

Nobody is saying that water changes decrease bacteria colonies. Vigorously vacuuming the substrate (with a powered syphon like a Python) and wiping out filter media does, however.

N8DOGG · Nov 14, 2004

"I’ve been keeping fish for around 7 years now, I have 110 gallon tank with mainly passive large cichlids, many of them from Jeff Rapps so their names escape me except to say again they are docile kind of like sevrums. I’ve had this tank up for years and hardly ever lose a fish; lately I seem to be battling ich and other similar diseases. Any new fish I buy comes up with the symptoms in a day or so and usually takes out a clown loach or two some of which are very mature. I treat the ich by raising the temp and when it’s bad adding rid ich but only a half of a dose to protect the clowns.

I do water changes every two weeks, one with a gravel siphon the next just 30% of the water (any more and the tank gets cloudy like I’m taking out too much beneficial bacteria). All water parameters are OK from my master test kit and I have a Fluval 204 and 404 doing the filtering, the 204 maybe getting a bit tired (it’s 4 years old) so I’m replacing it with a new 404, air is via two Rena air 400s (biggest they make) hooked up to a bubble wall that runs the length of the tank. PH is at a pretty steady 7.2, tank is not over crowded but likely close to it’s limit and my fish are fed cich pellets, frozen blood worms and dried krill once a day."

Ok I'm not all-knowing but I'd like to help.
110 gallon with how many fish? how large are they?
how about weekly water changes of 50% and gravel siphon the whole tank. Most of the benificial bacteria is in the filter not in the water and very little in the substrate.But ich will live in the substrate and to get rid of them you'll need to clean it.
Do you stir up the gravel or siphion it up? I've never caused to much debris to float up in the water from just vacuuming the gravel.
I've treated ich with heat and salt even with my clown loaches

and daveedka I'd miss ya

edit: added q's and can't spell

andy5268 · Nov 15, 2004

Thanks all!

I'll begin digesting all of this info, as much as i hate to even think about it do you think that my problems are related to a lack of filtration? the 204 that will soon be retired is running at roughly half the flow it was when it was new.

nice hondoren "Nate" i have one as well, very cool fish.


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(Ich and Cichs) Really need some help from patient people.

andy5268

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daveedka

Purple is the color of Royalty

NickH

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daveedka

Purple is the color of Royalty

Banger

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NickH

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daveedka

Purple is the color of Royalty

NickH

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N8DOGG

Peaches !!

andy5268

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