Just attended a beginner's aquarium course...

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mishi8

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Jan 13, 2005
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It was held at the LFS. The owner is a long-time aquarist (55 years) and a North America certified instructor and teaches courses for freshwater, marine and specialty fish keeping (eg: discus). The Beginner Freshwater course was free...and it was interesting. He talked about the importance of treating for chloramines, not using soap to clean, using buckets made of food-grade plastics (which I haven't done!:eek: ) , making sure hands are free of soaps, lotions, perfumes, etc when working in the tank, etc...all good stuff. He also talked about the importance of selecting fish that work best in the size of tank and in type of aquarium that you want to keep (eg: community vs. species), and being aware of the adult size of the fish when stocking a tank, etc...more good stuff. Best part of it is that, when it came to water parameters, he talked about our local water supply.

But I'm still left wondering about what I should do with my tank. This LFS keeps their water with a neutral/close to neutral pH. My pH is reading at 8.0-8.2. Apparently, treating the water for chloramines with AquaPlus should have the added benefit of leveling and maintaining pH at around 7.6. I've not had that experience. I've even tried adding sodium biphosphate and it would drop the pH by 0.2, but it would come back up again the next day. Soooo, I've been leaving the pH at a more stable 8.0-8.2 thinking "stable" pH is more important than "optimal" pH.

I talked with the instructor about what could be causing the rebounding pH...and he thinks that my gravel could be a culprit (it may have shell fragments or the gravel may be high in certain metals/minerals that are leaching into the water). I'm going to be taking a sample of my gravel in to test. If it is the culprit, then do I decide to change it out (and start cycling again! :thud: ) so I can adjust for a lower pH...or do I just keep going along with a stable, higher pH?:confused:

I wish I had taken this class before setting up this tank...at least I would have had a consistent place to start, rather than gathering info piecemeal!

Mishi8
 

gsk177

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Fish stores generally keep their water for the majority of their fish to whatever the pH from the tap is. If their tap water pH is 7.6 then they will not alter it. You are right in your assumption that a stable pH is better than an optimal one.

If your pH has some crushed coral in it, it could cause a pH increase, but I would highly suspect that from being the culprit unless you had aLOT of visible coral in it.

Before I would go getting all crazy on your pH, i would figure out what kind of fish I was going to keep. Most fish can tollerate and actually thrive in a pH higher than their optimal range. Peat will bring your pH down, but it is best to experiement with it BEFORE hand so you know just how much to add to your filter to bring the pH down to your optimal level. Once there, you will need to frequently test your water and monitor it for exhaustion of the peat. Meaning, once the peat exhausts itself it will nolonger reduce your pH and you will in turn have a pH fluctuation.
Driftwood will also help bring your pH down, but thereagain you will ahve to test your water to see just how much it brings it down. It is highly unlikely that you will be able to add enough driftwood to a tank to bring the levels down to neutral.
Ph dropper addatives are very dangerous to add to the tank. Once added, they quickly allow the pH to increase again, give you the yo-yo effect that you want to avoid.
The 3 items I mentioned are relatively cheap, but each is only a small or temperary fix. The more long term solutions are either time consuming or costly.
You could premix tap water with RO water or simply add RO water instead of tap water for your water changes to get the desired pH effect. Either way, you will either need to do extensive testing or premixing of the water, or invest in an RO water supply for the home and use it for your water changes.

For these reasons alone, I find it highly more advisable to stick with a fish selection that can withstand the pH you can give them straight from the tap. Its easier, cheaper, and safer than risking yo-yoing your pH to an optimal level.
 

Karnaaj

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Jan 7, 2005
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If you want to raise Ph it is relatively easy to do through the use of crushed gravel or one of the other specially made substrates designed for that purpose. Trying to lower Ph and keeping it lowered is a whole new ball game. Unless you are willing to constantly monitor your water chemistry or invest in an expensive RO unit its best to leave it where it is. Unless your Ph is 8.0 or better you won't have to cross too many fish off of your potentials list.

I would consider the possibility of keeping Cichlids from either Lake Malawi or Lake Tanganyika in Africa. They are colorful, fairly easy to keep, and have interesting behavior. The one drawback is that it can be difficult to put together the right mix of fish so they don't kill each other. You don't mention the size of your tank, which will make a difference on whether you can go that route or not.
 

JSchmidt

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Jun 27, 1999
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www.wiu.edu
I also agree that stability is more important than the actual value of pH, except for really extreme cases. I keep many different kinds of tetras, angelfish, etc., in water with a pH of 7.8 - 8.0. Breeding acidic-water fish in my water might be a problem, but they seem to do well with a good diet and regular maintenance of the tank (including water changes, etc.).

Trying to lower pH with chemicals or additives is almost always a losing proposition. This approach often ends up causing more problems than it fixes.

Your substrate may be causing problems, but before you swap it out, I'd check your tap water for KH (carbonate hardness), GH (general hardness) and pH, and compare those values to your tank water. That will give you some ideas of what's going on.

HTH,
Jim
 

mishi8

Go fly a kite!
Jan 13, 2005
768
0
16
Alberta
gsk177 said:
Fish stores generally keep their water for the majority of their fish to whatever the pH from the tap is. If their tap water pH is 7.6 then they will not alter it. You are right in your assumption that a stable pH is better than an optimal one.
This LFS does adjust their pH. Their very careful about acclimatizing the fish they bring in, and are careful not to sell fish until they are properly acclimatized for a long enough time. They're also really careful about the health of their fish and will immediately ban fish from sale from a tank where even one fish is sick. This LFS, BTW, has an excellent reputation for their knowledge and quality fish and products.

If your pH has some crushed coral in it, it could cause a pH increase, but I would highly suspect that from being the culprit unless you had aLOT of visible coral in it.
That's where I think there may be an issue. I took a look at my original bill of sale for the gravel (Petsmart) and it indicates coral. I vaguely remember being concerned about it when our tank was set up (the bag of gravel wasn't clearly marked, but the reciept said coral), but my DH suggested their was nothing to worry about. He was the one setting up and maintaining the tank orginally, and now it's become my job. I had since forgotten about the questionable gravel until the topic came up last night...and then I put two and two together. I'm taking the gravel into the LFS to get tested to confirm.

Before I would go getting all crazy on your pH, i would figure out what kind of fish I was going to keep. Most fish can tollerate and actually thrive in a pH higher than their optimal range. Peat will bring your pH down, but it is best to experiement with it BEFORE hand so you know just how much to add to your filter to bring the pH down to your optimal level. Once there, you will need to frequently test your water and monitor it for exhaustion of the peat. Meaning, once the peat exhausts itself it will nolonger reduce your pH and you will in turn have a pH fluctuation.
Driftwood will also help bring your pH down, but thereagain you will ahve to test your water to see just how much it brings it down. It is highly unlikely that you will be able to add enough driftwood to a tank to bring the levels down to neutral.
I don't like the suggestion I'm getting "crazy" about my pH! Before I figure out anything about what fish to keep, I'm testing the gravel. I'm not adding anything else to the tank...decorations, peat, drifwood or otherwise... to try dropping the pH...especially if it's the gravel that's causing problems. Yes, I do have to decide whether I'm going to work with my tap water pH and keep appropriate fish based on that, or continue with a community tank that needs a lower pH (or not if I decide to go with the AC community advise on fish being able to tolerate a stable, but higher, pH).

Ph dropper addatives are very dangerous to add to the tank. Once added, they quickly allow the pH to increase again, give you the yo-yo effect that you want to avoid.
Except that this LFS owner/instructor mentioned that AquaPlus, used on our local tap water, levels and maintains pH at around 7.6. Or I could, as the LFS does, use Prime and Sodium Biphosphate, and fiddle with my water constantly. I don't know if I have it in me to be that picky about the water.

The 3 items I mentioned are relatively cheap, but each is only a small or temperary fix. The more long term solutions are either time consuming or costly.
You could premix tap water with RO water or simply add RO water instead of tap water for your water changes to get the desired pH effect. Either way, you will either need to do extensive testing or premixing of the water, or invest in an RO water supply for the home and use it for your water changes.
I think using RO water would be more work than the sodium biphosphate. Plus there is the added issue of tinkering too much with the level of dissolved solids in the tank.

For these reasons alone, I find it highly more advisable to stick with a fish selection that can withstand the pH you can give them straight from the tap. Its easier, cheaper, and safer than risking yo-yoing your pH to an optimal level.
I appreciate your response to my questions. That is definitely something I have to think about.

Mishi8
 

mishi8

Go fly a kite!
Jan 13, 2005
768
0
16
Alberta
Karnaaj said:
If you want to raise Ph it is relatively easy to do through the use of crushed gravel or one of the other specially made substrates designed for that purpose. Trying to lower Ph and keeping it lowered is a whole new ball game. Unless you are willing to constantly monitor your water chemistry or invest in an expensive RO unit its best to leave it where it is. Unless your Ph is 8.0 or better you won't have to cross too many fish off of your potentials list.
I suspect my gravel has coral in it....making it difficult/impossible to lower the pH. Our pH out of the tap is 8.0+.

I would consider the possibility of keeping Cichlids from either Lake Malawi or Lake Tanganyika in Africa. They are colorful, fairly easy to keep, and have interesting behavior. The one drawback is that it can be difficult to put together the right mix of fish so they don't kill each other. You don't mention the size of your tank, which will make a difference on whether you can go that route or not.
Thanks, changing my choice of fish is one solution I'm considering.

Mishi8
 

mishi8

Go fly a kite!
Jan 13, 2005
768
0
16
Alberta
JSchmidt said:
I also agree that stability is more important than the actual value of pH, except for really extreme cases. I keep many different kinds of tetras, angelfish, etc., in water with a pH of 7.8 - 8.0. Breeding acidic-water fish in my water might be a problem, but they seem to do well with a good diet and regular maintenance of the tank (including water changes, etc.).

Trying to lower pH with chemicals or additives is almost always a losing proposition. This approach often ends up causing more problems than it fixes.

Your substrate may be causing problems, but before you swap it out, I'd check your tap water for KH (carbonate hardness), GH (general hardness) and pH, and compare those values to your tank water. That will give you some ideas of what's going on.

HTH,
Jim
Thanks, Jim. I dont' currently have a method of testing KH & GH, but our tap water is fairly hard, and the levels I got on my tank water early on was Hardness: 150ppm and Alkalinity 120-180ppm...that's with the current gravel substrate. The readings at the water treatment plant yesterday were 7.96 pH, hardness 181, and alk 133.

mishi8
 

JSchmidt

Cowbell! I need more cowbell!
Jun 27, 1999
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IL, USA
www.wiu.edu
Assuming your tap water is pretty much the same as that from the treatment plant, it looks like your gravel is isn't driving up pH and KH a great deal. Without testing both water sources in your home with the same kit, it's hard to be sure, but we all have constraints! Anyway, it certainly wouldn't hurt to replace your gravel, but if the water is almost pH of 8 out of the tap, you won't be dissolving much coral anyway. I think it doesn't bump pH much above 7.8 or so. After that, it stops dissolving and adding to the KH.

I still think you could keep most species of fish in your water. You might not be able to keep discus or breed tetras, but otherwise you should be fine.

HTH,
Jim
 

mishi8

Go fly a kite!
Jan 13, 2005
768
0
16
Alberta
Update

Well, I've been to the LFS, and the owner looked at my gravel. He believes it's river gravel...a big mix of all sorts of rock, and it is showing signs of calcium, and iron. His suggestion is, if I want to keep most tropical community fish, I should change the gravel (see if I can exchange it at Petsmart) and get the pH down to at least 7.6 (whether it's with just adding AquaPlus or using sodium biphosphate.) He said if I don't want to change it out, then I could keep a different species such as African Cichlids or Goldfish (not together of course!) :)

So I've some thinking to do. If we keep goldfish, we can only have two at most in our 10g. These are supposed to be my kids' fish...and we'll need to get at least three to be fair... Eventually I would like a bigger tank (with different substrate!), which would give us a more stable environment and more choices for species, but I need to get this tank stable and established first.

mishi8
 

Samala

mmm RNA..
On another note.. "North America certified instructor"..? He's actually certified to teach classes on fish keeping? This is the first time I've heard of such a thing. What organization gave him that credential? I'm a little skeptical about that but I'm actually more interested than anything. It'd be neat to even attend a class on how you go about instructing people to setup aquariums. Or maybe that's the scuba-diving instructor in me popping up on the aquarium board... ;) Just curious.
 
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