New 150g just looking for some helpful hints to make this expierence a happy one
- Thread starter ducepurdy
- Start date
when ever I am wondering about what fish to get( i don't buy from them because I think that buying live stock from the internet is a very risky thing) i go to www.liveaquaria.com or www.marinedepotlive.com or www.vividaquariums.com
other than that, reef central is awsome, and so is this site
other than that, reef central is awsome, and so is this site
My situation is similar... I have a 125 FOWLR ANd my nitrates are so hi... like between 80 and 100 all the time. Could anyone teel me what some possible causes of this high nitrates are? We have 2 magnum 350's one is running charcol and the other has some ceramic rings that are supposed to help with bacteria colinization, we just put these rings in last weekend. we also have a Seaclone 150 protien skimmer. Last week we did 2 water changes, 1 50% with instant ocean mixed and areated. the nitrates were still up at around 40, but within a few days they had risen to 80 again. Our source water has nitrates under 20 but higher than ten. So the second water change a few days later we did with water from the ocean. We tested it first and it was the correct pH and salinity and had 0 nitrates. We did another 40-50% water change using that. The Nitrates were down to 20 right after that but now.. 5 days later, they are back up to 80-100??? Why are they going up so fast? We cannot do water changes twice a week! It is just too much! I have now in the tank about 75-100lbs of live rock, one 2-3 inch orange buterfly fish, various hitchikers, and 1 large hermit crab with anemones on his shell. The crab is really starting to suffer... he used to be very active all over the tank but now has not moved from his cave in 3 days. He is alive and eating what goes in there but will not come out. I know that the nitrates are getting to him. Could there be something in the tank that is causing the high nitrates? I don't have a large load on the tank with only 1 fish in there so far. we have 1 other fish in quarentine and the nitrates in there are about 20.
Could we need to clean out the return flow tubes? they have some film on them. I am really out of ideas. Any help would be really, really appriciated. If i have not included some info that could help you tell me what is wrong just let me know! Thank you!
Could we need to clean out the return flow tubes? they have some film on them. I am really out of ideas. Any help would be really, really appriciated. If i have not included some info that could help you tell me what is wrong just let me know! Thank you!
Tanisheily, the first thing you need to do is verify your readings with another test kit. Have your LFS check the water.
Providing your readings are accurate I would say:
1. Cannisters are not helping, the rings are going to convert any nutrients to more nitrates. We don't need more CONVERSION here with your light bio load, what we need is more nutrient EXPORT. I would SLOWLY remove this media in both of them over the period of 90 days, a little at a time. Leave the cannisters running empty for more circulation.
2. At the SAME time, add another skimmer. Also make sure your skimmer is working; should be removing dark sludge every day for you, if not then adjust it or find one that does.
Get one bigger than the gallon rating on the box. Choose wisely, lots of overated junk out there.
3. Tell me about your substrate; 2-3 inch crushed coral beds, dead sand beds can all be nutrient sinks/adding nitrates faster than water changes can keep up. Hobby is supposed to be relaxing, after all. A properly balanced basic marine system should only require monthly water changes or less.
4. You may need to look into a deep sand bed (DSB) located inside a refugium (not in the display) there is much info available on the web for that, use your search engine. Also look into an algae filter, which can also be located in a refugium/sump below the tank. Try a big wad of chaetomorpha (not caulerpa) in a reverse lighted sump, that will serve as a great export filter for your pesky nitrates. Plants love consuming fertilizer! Be advised, you don't need zero readings for a basic FOWLR system, but agree 100 is too high.
5. You are gambling with adding uncured seawater; intro of pesky pathogens a real possibility here. Cure it for 4 weeks in sealed fish-safe containers in total darkness, then aerate for 24 hours before using.
Feel your frustration, but this can be conotrolled/balanced.
Your questions will lead to success. More info below from my files:
High nitrates are more of an indicator of total dissolved organic compounds and overall system health, such as PH issues. Some species are indeed less/more sensitive than others to DOC's and nutrient/metabolite buildup. For reef/invert systems, most target less than 5 ppm and they often keep sparse fish populations in those tanks to help limit nutrient input. For more robust fish systems nitrates are less of a concern; a 20 to 40 ppm reading is common and can usually be maintained/lowered with efficient skimming and scheduled water changes. While many fish are likely not harmed by moderate or even higher nitrate levels, IMO higher nitrates almost always go hand in hand with a low PH; and PH/alkaline reserve is a much more serious parameter that requires careful attention in all marine systems.
Providing your readings are accurate I would say:
1. Cannisters are not helping, the rings are going to convert any nutrients to more nitrates. We don't need more CONVERSION here with your light bio load, what we need is more nutrient EXPORT. I would SLOWLY remove this media in both of them over the period of 90 days, a little at a time. Leave the cannisters running empty for more circulation.
2. At the SAME time, add another skimmer. Also make sure your skimmer is working; should be removing dark sludge every day for you, if not then adjust it or find one that does.
Get one bigger than the gallon rating on the box. Choose wisely, lots of overated junk out there.
3. Tell me about your substrate; 2-3 inch crushed coral beds, dead sand beds can all be nutrient sinks/adding nitrates faster than water changes can keep up. Hobby is supposed to be relaxing, after all. A properly balanced basic marine system should only require monthly water changes or less.
4. You may need to look into a deep sand bed (DSB) located inside a refugium (not in the display) there is much info available on the web for that, use your search engine. Also look into an algae filter, which can also be located in a refugium/sump below the tank. Try a big wad of chaetomorpha (not caulerpa) in a reverse lighted sump, that will serve as a great export filter for your pesky nitrates. Plants love consuming fertilizer! Be advised, you don't need zero readings for a basic FOWLR system, but agree 100 is too high.
5. You are gambling with adding uncured seawater; intro of pesky pathogens a real possibility here. Cure it for 4 weeks in sealed fish-safe containers in total darkness, then aerate for 24 hours before using.
Feel your frustration, but this can be conotrolled/balanced.
Your questions will lead to success. More info below from my files:
High nitrates are more of an indicator of total dissolved organic compounds and overall system health, such as PH issues. Some species are indeed less/more sensitive than others to DOC's and nutrient/metabolite buildup. For reef/invert systems, most target less than 5 ppm and they often keep sparse fish populations in those tanks to help limit nutrient input. For more robust fish systems nitrates are less of a concern; a 20 to 40 ppm reading is common and can usually be maintained/lowered with efficient skimming and scheduled water changes. While many fish are likely not harmed by moderate or even higher nitrate levels, IMO higher nitrates almost always go hand in hand with a low PH; and PH/alkaline reserve is a much more serious parameter that requires careful attention in all marine systems.
Last edited:
FloridaBoy
Thank you for all of your advice, I really needed it! My substrate is 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inches of puka shell sand. It is very corse sand, slightly smaller particle size than the crushed coral that I have seen... But it is not Crushed coral. Am i supposed to try to vacume it? I have an attachment with the magnum that can do this, also the Magnum has a micron filter that you put in when you vacume, is this filter ok to use or no? My hubby and I spent the day trying to figure out how to build a sump. What Do you think would be better the wet/dry bio ball type or the biowheel attachment. like a penguine?
Our ideas have lead us to a plan to use gravity to bring the water down into the wet/dry compartment and then out of that and into the refugium, with the dsb and the hopefully some type of algae, although I am not sure I can find the specific type you are talking about. For the DSB it is suppose to be fine sand correct... how would I go about "cure"ing that? Same as you said for the water, or do I want it live?
Next we are going to use the Magnum with nothing in it to pump the water back up to the tank... no need to spend more on a pump and have 2 magnums sitting around right?
For now a new skimmer is not an option... but is first on the wish list. I am thinking the remora pro for a hang on, or possibly the euro reef ES series down in the sump.
On a final note we have had a lot of pH and alkalinity problems. Our DKH was over 23... yes you may think that is impossible, but it was. It was 8.5 meq/L We realized that the reason was because the tank was building up with carbon dioxide due to poor aeration. Once we we hooked up the airline to our Maxi jet for a few days the level has come down to 4 meq/L or under 11.2 DKH still a little high but much better than it was. I asked the LFS if we needed an air pump when we set up the tank and they said it was not important... And there was NO info that I could find on the web about very high alkalinity. The FasTest that we are using to check the DKH with had a little 10 page guide in the back that helped us to figure out the problem was the CO2 build up. It explained it as the same thing that happens When you ship fish... how the pH drops, causeing stress to the fish in shipping. I am including this because I hope it helps someone else out there who is trying to find an answer to this.
In reality, I WISH i would have found a GOOD web site like this before we purchased everything. Our LFS basically set us up with stuff that we have to compleatly change now. It is so confusing, that and we started wanting fish only ... then my hubby decided he wanted live rock so that may have changed what was required by our equipment.
Thanks again for the help, it means so much to me.
Thank you for all of your advice, I really needed it! My substrate is 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inches of puka shell sand. It is very corse sand, slightly smaller particle size than the crushed coral that I have seen... But it is not Crushed coral. Am i supposed to try to vacume it? I have an attachment with the magnum that can do this, also the Magnum has a micron filter that you put in when you vacume, is this filter ok to use or no? My hubby and I spent the day trying to figure out how to build a sump. What Do you think would be better the wet/dry bio ball type or the biowheel attachment. like a penguine?
Our ideas have lead us to a plan to use gravity to bring the water down into the wet/dry compartment and then out of that and into the refugium, with the dsb and the hopefully some type of algae, although I am not sure I can find the specific type you are talking about. For the DSB it is suppose to be fine sand correct... how would I go about "cure"ing that? Same as you said for the water, or do I want it live?
Next we are going to use the Magnum with nothing in it to pump the water back up to the tank... no need to spend more on a pump and have 2 magnums sitting around right?
For now a new skimmer is not an option... but is first on the wish list. I am thinking the remora pro for a hang on, or possibly the euro reef ES series down in the sump.
On a final note we have had a lot of pH and alkalinity problems. Our DKH was over 23... yes you may think that is impossible, but it was. It was 8.5 meq/L We realized that the reason was because the tank was building up with carbon dioxide due to poor aeration. Once we we hooked up the airline to our Maxi jet for a few days the level has come down to 4 meq/L or under 11.2 DKH still a little high but much better than it was. I asked the LFS if we needed an air pump when we set up the tank and they said it was not important... And there was NO info that I could find on the web about very high alkalinity. The FasTest that we are using to check the DKH with had a little 10 page guide in the back that helped us to figure out the problem was the CO2 build up. It explained it as the same thing that happens When you ship fish... how the pH drops, causeing stress to the fish in shipping. I am including this because I hope it helps someone else out there who is trying to find an answer to this.
In reality, I WISH i would have found a GOOD web site like this before we purchased everything. Our LFS basically set us up with stuff that we have to compleatly change now. It is so confusing, that and we started wanting fish only ... then my hubby decided he wanted live rock so that may have changed what was required by our equipment.
Thanks again for the help, it means so much to me.
Please make your next investment a good book,
try The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner.
Consider adding an airstone. Yeah, I know they are old school but...
veteran aquarists know if you can put up with the salt creep at the top of the tank, an airstone is a great addition to your marine fish system.
They drive off Co2 which helps with the pH--in some ways they do a better job than powerheads at the surface, because of the small stream of tiny bubbles rising from the bottom of the tank... a very beneficial and economical way to improve the water quality of your system... if you can put up with the salt creep. You can also drop one in the sump to boost oxygen there if you don't want it in the display.
As far as the skimmer I have heard many good things about the EuroReef line and also Won Brothers. Choose wisely.
I am not an expert on sand beds but here's my 2 cents... sand beds, particularly live DSB's located in sumps in marine systems can be a real benefit in quickly reducing nitrates, if set up and maintained correctly... sand beds and other substrates, crushed coral etc. can also be a complete disaster if they are not understood/maintained correctly;; there are different schools of thought here; some stir the sand with sifter species/critters, others advise never disturbing it... do your homework and proceed with caution before disturbing/removing or adding any sand. Some claim better success with no sand in the display at all. The general direction I am getting from Fenner's site is, sand should be less than an inch or more than 4 inches, which puts you in "no man's land," but it is beyond the scope of this reply to give you all the specifics... you will have to research it for your application. Less controversial, the algae filter is very promising in my opinion, but a trickle filter wih more bio media/wheels will provide CONVERSION to more nitrates (see my previous comments point no.1, are you listening?). Do we want conversion? No, we want EXPORT.
I would first try the algae filter with chaetomorpha in a reverse lighted sump (on at night). You can slowly start reducing the sand bed with a vacuum over a period of 3-6 months, combined with water changes to replace that old water/sand/detritus this will help IMO. At the same time you can vacuum the silt/mulm away from the live rock.
Best wishes for your success.
try The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner.
Consider adding an airstone. Yeah, I know they are old school but...
veteran aquarists know if you can put up with the salt creep at the top of the tank, an airstone is a great addition to your marine fish system.
They drive off Co2 which helps with the pH--in some ways they do a better job than powerheads at the surface, because of the small stream of tiny bubbles rising from the bottom of the tank... a very beneficial and economical way to improve the water quality of your system... if you can put up with the salt creep. You can also drop one in the sump to boost oxygen there if you don't want it in the display.
As far as the skimmer I have heard many good things about the EuroReef line and also Won Brothers. Choose wisely.
I am not an expert on sand beds but here's my 2 cents... sand beds, particularly live DSB's located in sumps in marine systems can be a real benefit in quickly reducing nitrates, if set up and maintained correctly... sand beds and other substrates, crushed coral etc. can also be a complete disaster if they are not understood/maintained correctly;; there are different schools of thought here; some stir the sand with sifter species/critters, others advise never disturbing it... do your homework and proceed with caution before disturbing/removing or adding any sand. Some claim better success with no sand in the display at all. The general direction I am getting from Fenner's site is, sand should be less than an inch or more than 4 inches, which puts you in "no man's land," but it is beyond the scope of this reply to give you all the specifics... you will have to research it for your application. Less controversial, the algae filter is very promising in my opinion, but a trickle filter wih more bio media/wheels will provide CONVERSION to more nitrates (see my previous comments point no.1, are you listening?). Do we want conversion? No, we want EXPORT.
I would first try the algae filter with chaetomorpha in a reverse lighted sump (on at night). You can slowly start reducing the sand bed with a vacuum over a period of 3-6 months, combined with water changes to replace that old water/sand/detritus this will help IMO. At the same time you can vacuum the silt/mulm away from the live rock.
Best wishes for your success.
