newbie question about cichlids

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Xseeker

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Jan 9, 2006
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Hello everybody,
I've been lurking for the past couple of weeks and a lot of good info comes out in these threads.
This is my situation. I've got a 55 g aquarium. My last fish in it passed away in November. SO I gave it a good cleaning and decided to make it for cichlids. One guy at a petstore told me I could use some zebra danios to get the tank cycled. he said in his tank, they got along with the cichlids. Well, at another store, I was told the cichlids would kill them. One salesperson told me I could use a few feeder fish to cycle my tank but that the cichlids would kill them sooner or later. They were cheaper than the danios! So now I've got four little goldfish in there. I also got two plants, a tight bunch of anacharis and something called mondo grass.
I hate to see fish killed but I guess it's going to happen. However, I just now realized if they aren't killed, how big does the common goldfish get? I've heard some can get rather large. Was it a dumb idea to use feeder fish to cycle a tank?
Another question is which and how many cichlids do you put in a 55 g tank?
I was thinking of 3 electric yellows, 3 kenyis, and 3 of another kind, maybe a red zebra or a jewel. And I'd need an algae eater, the Chineese algae eater or a gold one. That would be 10 fish. Too many or just right?
And how long would it take for the goldfish to get it ready for the cichlids?
The people at Petsmart told me I had good water, a little hard so the ph is more basic (good for cichlids, right) and that it had some nitrate in it, but the plants would like it. if the cichlids don't kill the plants, of course.
I appreciate any info you can give me about this. thanks.
 

Analog Saint

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1) As to the cycling: I wouldn't judge it as dumb, I just chose fishless cycling or silent cycling on all my tanks.
2) As to how many of what: Depends how many of what kind of Cichlid you want in your 55, and whether you're growing them out for a larger tank, or if you're just stopping with 55. Sounds like you wanna do africans: plenty of knowledgeable people here, especially LuvMyKribs.

On one hand, goldfish meet all kinds of horrible ends, so even if you took them back, their fate is sealed with some sort of unpleasant demise- either being eaten, or poisoned by ammonia/chlorine by people who don't know/care about their fish, or exiled to a teacup full of water by people who don't know that goldfish can live for decades and grow very large.

Reccomendations:
1) Get a test kit: Test for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate.
2) Do constant water changes to keep the feeders from being poisoned by Ammonia/Nitrite, or return them and do fishless cycling (latter karmically reccomended)
3) Read the things around the forum about cycling, and when your cycle is nearing completion, see #4.
4) Talk to LuvMyKribs, or one of the other knowledgeable people, about your future african cichlids.

Oh, Cichlids are tropicals, and goldfish don't dig on the heat. So I wouldn't heat the tank if you choose to cycle it with goldfish. You may also grow attached to the little guys, who knows. I rescued a large moor goldfish from a 1 quart bowl (yes, the size of a large PYREX mixing bowl) in which he couldn't even turn around. Become quite attached for the guy, and soon arranged a 20L for him.
 
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~*LuvMyKribs*~

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Welcome ;)

It does sound like your leaning towards Africans, which is a great choice! :D

Firstly.... DONT LISTEN TO PETSMART! While I'm sure there are some very knowledgeable employees there, from my experience, its best to do ALL the research yourself. I bet you'll get different info from each person who works there... so its best to find these things out on your own. I think critically about everything my LFS(s) tell me, even if I know and trust the people working there. Because lets face it, we all cant know everything. ;)

What your going to want to do is learn as much as you can about Malawi cichlids. A great site is this: http://www.malawimayhem.com. They have an excellent article on setting up a malawi cichlid tank: http://www.malawimayhem.com/articles_setup_01.shtml. Once you've read that, you will be more familiar with what the setup should be like, and what water conditions are needed. I would focus on getting your pH up to around 8.0-8.2, but a little less or more is fine.

I agree with Analog Saint that you should pick yourself up some test kits and not rely on the LFS. That way YOU will understand better what is going on in your tank, and you can test from home when the occasion calls for it. Generally cycling takes about a month, but use test kits to monitor ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels to be sure. Read up on the Nitrogen cycle in aquariums if you need to, its always good to know becuase there are many things that could happen to your tank to mess up the cycle, and you should be aware of what is going on in your tank. For example, you accidentally clean off your filter sponge and get cloudy tank water..... and a few days later an ammonia spike hits that kills all your fish. Had you know, you probebly could have avoided it. Stuff like that ;).

I dont think you should have cycled the tank with feeders. While I think its best to fishless cycle, its not always easy for the begining aquarist (which I dont think you are ;) ). Using feeders is especially bad though, because they often are raised in terrible conditions and harbour lots of diseases and parasites.... which can be spread to your prized fish. Another reason is because you are going to be keeping malawi cichlids, which cannot eat feeders (so you cant just leave them in there to be eaten). Also is the forementioned temperature and pH difference.

Lets start with that... and worry about stocking later. Go slow, because your going to want to add all your fish at once (it'll avoid some hassle down the road). But to mention quickly: your going to want to go with either less-aggressive mbuna, medium aggressive mbuna, or peacocks. I would not attempt highly aggressive mbuna in such a tank size, OR any larger haplochromis species. The yellow labs would work, the kenyi would not, ESPECIALLY together. There is also a wonderful little "stocking recipe" guide available in the articles section on malawi mayhem. It may give you some ideas ;).

Also, stick to fish from lake malawi or possibly other rift lakes. Dont add chinese algae eaters.... they require different water conditions (lower pH for example) and diet. You could probebly get away with adding a catfish or two from Lake Tangynika, which are from similar water conditions as the malawis. Your cichlids will graze on algae because they are party or mostly vegetarian, depending on the species. You may want to add a pleco to help with algae, which could probebly be done if acclimatized really well, but leave that until the time comes.

As for plants yes the cichlids will likely eat them. There are a few plants, such as anubias, vallisneria, and java fern, that tend to fare better in malawi tanks with the cichlids and the high pH. These are also lower light species, so keeping less light on the tank will help with the algae problems.

HTH
:)
-Diana
 
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Xseeker

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Jan 9, 2006
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thanks for the info!

Thanks for the information. It is very helpful. I shouldn't have used feeder fish to cycle. In less than two days, three of them have died. I've only got one left. Maybe the water is too warm for them? At Petsmart, many of the tropical fish tanks would have one fancy goldfish in them, the kind with the funky red toupee! If this last fish goes, I'll just cycle without fish. And the plants are still alive. Does it really take up to a month to cycle enough to get ready for the fish? Then I can take my time carefully picking out what to put in.
Cichlids can be difficult to pick out can't they? I really like the electric yellows, but they don't mix well with the kenyi? How about blue peacocks?
Thing is, I haven't seen any of them in local stores. I've noticed a number of websites that sell fish online. How do they send live fish through the mail?
Petsmart (which so far have the best looking fish and tanks in nice condition) say they don't order fish for customers and they don't take fish back (like if your fish breed and make several hundred offspring). There's another LFS in my area that I need to check out and see if they will order fish and such.
i also need to check out the sites that you mentioned. Thanks again!
 

Analog Saint

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Another reason feeders aren't reccomended is they're usually sickly, inbred, and diseased. My trip to petsmart today to try and find a reverse-flow kit for a powerhead was a gruesome sight... I saw lots of dead/dying fish, some poor guys stuck to the intake of a filter while other fish were eating em, others with cloudy eyes/popeye, and some rather sickly balas. Heartbreaking.

I wouldn't reccomend a fishless cycle with live plants in there, as Ammonia will make algae reproduce like crazy, and it'll bury your nice live plants in algae sludge...

Here's what may work: get a 10G or 20G glass aquarium- keep the recepit. Don't get a filter, hood, or such, just the little glass and silicon box... Put on your filter, and use the 10G to cycle your media... Once it can handle a strong bioload (5-6ppm NH3/day), put it back on your 55g and add a moderate bioload... You'll have to watch for a small inevitable spike when you do stock your tank, but that MAY work... Then return your glass box, and VOILA.

Just a suggestion, someone else may have a better idea.
 
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~*LuvMyKribs*~

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Possibly borrow a stocking full of gravel from an established tank... from a friend or at the LFS. Then stick that in your filter and it will help seed your sponges or media.

I guess all Petsmart/Petcetra are different, but every one I've been in is terrible. Its much better to find a smaller privately owned pet store. Look into any local aquarium hobbyest clubs or local breeders that can help you out with fish. While its important to look into fish that are available to you locally at pet stores, you must first consider which fish will suit your tank and each other. ;)

Also, its best to avoid use of 'common names' for fish. Blue peacocks? I have no idea what species that is :p. It might not even be a peacock! For your tank I would work around the electric yellows (yellow labs) because you wont be able to keep much with the kenyi. But lets wait until your tank is finished cycling ;).


:)
-Diana
 

Xseeker

Registered Member
Jan 9, 2006
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cycling a 55 g

Hmm, I've got an old 10 g tank somewhere....I think. Maybe somewhere in the garage. Right now, the single goldfish seems to be doing okay. Seems to have a taste for the plants (LOL). I put food in for him and he nibbles at everything. Til I figure out what to do next, I'll just let the tank cycle.
My local Petsmart looks to be a nice place, though. I've never noticed a lot of dead or diseased fish. It's true about taking their advice with a grain of salt. One suggested that i might put 2 oscars in my tank, but that it would be maxed out. From what I've heard, even one oscar could barely turn around in a 55 g. If they get over 13 inches in length.

I'm gonna look into getting one of the test kits and do more research into the fish. How many fish should one put in at a time? If you put in too many, wouldn't it mess up the nitrogen cycle? At another website, it said you could have up to 20 fish in a 55 g tank from 3 different species. BTW, I think the blue peacock was one of the pseudotropheus species. But I think the peacocks are haps, which wouldn't do well with the mbuna. I just thought a mostly blue fish would look nice with a mostly yellow one. What do you think about the cobalt zebra? It was mentioned as being compatible with yello labs.
 

S.A.

WHY? Cuz I can...
Oct 19, 2005
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know your fish

LuvMyKribs will have seen this one coming. I too am new to cichlids. My advice, which piggybacks on the previous, KNOW YOUR CICHLIDS. Do not rely on what the LFS tells you it is. I bought what I thought was a full grown male of a less aggressive variety... you guessed it, juvenile male kenyi! He beat the snot out of everything in the tank. I had to rescue my timid cichlid. Look through the profiles, look at the female, male and juvenile pics and know the scientific names.

Side note: Kribs I am sorry to report that although my female mutant cichlid has survived ( :bday: yeah and relief)... that kenyi was floating upside down at the bottom of the tank when I got home. No signs of stress, disease, or poisoning. I wonder if the pl*co finally had enough of him. Am checking the ammonia as we speak in case there was a spike.
Going to let the tank rest, do my research and am looking at possibly rams.


Good luck
 

~*LuvMyKribs*~

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Xseeker said:
BTW, I think the blue peacock was one of the pseudotropheus species. But I think the peacocks are haps, which wouldn't do well with the mbuna. I just thought a mostly blue fish would look nice with a mostly yellow one. What do you think about the cobalt zebra? It was mentioned as being compatible with yello labs.
Well peacocks are haps as you said, but pseudotropheus is mbuna. ;)

And there's not reason to think that haps wont do well with mbuna, but its a little more tricky. Haps and mbuna have generally different diets, and also need a different tank design. Thier temperments are different and also thier potential size plays a facor (a full grown rostratus or tyrranochromis will eat smaller mbuna). So, you need to be a little more experienced with these fish in order to attempt to mix them. :)

If you want the yellow and blue contrast in fish then I would look into one of my favriote mbuna, Pseudotropheus saulosi. Males are blue w/ black stripes and females are yellow/orange. Beautiful! They are less-aggressive too. http://www.malawimayhem.com/profile_show.php?id=276

:)

S.A. good to hear your girl is doing better! And too bad about the kenyi.... might well be an ammonia spike since the tank is not too old? At least now you dont have to worry about taking him back :D. Rams would be nice but not with your little lady ;).

-Diana
 

Xseeker

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Jan 9, 2006
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Well, my peacock isn't a pseudotropheus :eek: it's an aulonocara. But I think it's an omnivore like the yellow labs, so their diets should be similar. Hey, I looked into the P. saulosi. They look nice, think I like them. But, would the yellow labs get agressive with the females with their yellow color?

At the Melawimayhem site, it suggested for a 55 g tank, you could have up to 20 fish from 3 different species. And it listed compatible choices. Hmm.
Could you have cichlids from other parts of Africa in together? The buffalo head looks interesting.
 
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