Question about Cycling w/ Fish. Levels + temps + etc. included

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dslam

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Jan 17, 2006
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Temp: 79 F
PH: 6.2
Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate levels: 0
30gl community tank, planted (sparsely)
Added today: 7 Zebra Danios. 1 Mickey Mouse Platy. 1 "Red" Swordtail.

We just setup our tank yesterday and let it run 24 hours. We need to cycle and our only option right now is cycling w/ fish.


We added dechlorinator to our water (we have very little chloramine, but used a product that breaks it down). We tested levels and everything seemed to point to hospitable conditions with no beneficial bacteria, what we need to start cycling.

Our ph is a little low, and our water is quite soft... about 25ppm. Our alkilinity is therefore quite low and we have very little buffer but we are monitoring ph and although I have received conflicting information the presence of plants and the cycling process should bring the ph to a neutral level, as it is the water is only slightly acidic and apparently this won't hurt. I have read several postings/articles on the cycle and other chemistry so unless you consider your opinion to be vitally important in these aspects please keep it to yourself as the information available is conflicting and plentiful. I have to make decisions about credibility and to some extent I have made those, with my LFS and fish hobbyist friends.

I am starting this post to get the information out there, in case I have emergencies and need to ask more specific questions.

The one that I have is actually in regard to one of those pieces of information which varies depending on whom you pose the question to...

As we cycle the tank we expect to make changes, and we expect fish to die. If you think our tank is already overcrowded, I am sorry. I understand fish may suffer in these conditions until the tank is cycled, but at least I chose fish I will keep rather than goldfish I would flush after cycling (as one LFS reccomended to a customer this morning).

TEMPERATURE! :)

Its 79. That's green on the temperature guage, which is very far from the heater. Green is usually good, but I think the specific fish might enjoy something around 77 instead. Should it be lowered? The fish are new to the tank today and only one seems unhappy. The swordtail, who was the last of his stock and is probably going to go first.

Should I lower the temp?

I have heard.. 72-80, 72-82, 74-80, 76, depends on the fish, 75-77, 72-77, etc. etc.

I think "depends on the fish" makes sense but is entirely too broad. This is a community tank, so it seems the temperature is going to be a tad less than desirable for at least some of the species, but within tolerances. Will most fish tolerate 79, or is that way too high?
 

joephys

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Dec 22, 2005
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You shouldn't buy fish expecting them to die. 4 zebra danios would have cycled the tank and survived just fine.

You will probably have to do a lot of water changes with that many fish to keep ammonia down to levels where they will be ok. I never let my ammonia get above .5 ppm and my tank cycled just fine.

Don't try to adjust the ph, it will just make things worse. Fish are better off in a stable enviornment over one that is constantly being tweaked. I would get a pH buffer that buffers around 6.5 Seachem is good, its a buffer and a declorinator in one product.

It sounds like you only want specific things said in your post. Anything you say will probably be commented on in this forum, even if you don't want to hear it.
 

daveedka

Purple is the color of Royalty
Jan 30, 2004
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79 should be fine, as you noticed there is abroad range. there are a handful of fish such as rams and discus that get critically picky about temps. in a community tank I generally set between 76-80 and have no trouble.

The idea of killing a fish or purchasing unwanted fish just to prevent actually needing to care for those fish is rediculous. Fishy cycles can be done safely, they are not the best option obviously, but there is no need to torture and kill fish to cycle a tank with fish in it.

The cycling article here at AC will give you good solid answers and explanations. It was written specifically to deal with basic quaestions and also the myths pertaining to this process. If you can find anything erroneous in it, feel free to let me know, I'll correct it, but I'd be willing to wager on the accuracy of the information it contains.

I know you clearly stated you didn't want anyones thoughts or opinions, but Why wait until disaster strikes before finding things out?
low KH will slow the cycling process, 0 Kh (your situation ) is a really bad place to start. Plants do not add buffer, and the cycling process definately does not add buffer. Bacteria consume carbonate, if they don't have carbonate, they do not fare well. you definately need to give them at least a little bit of Buffer. Plants require some Carbonate as well, and since poorly growing plants are not what you need on top of a fishy cycle, you should raise the buffer level at least a little. I find it hard to believe that your tap water is completely devoid of KH, but 6.2 pH (equalized with atmosphere) would definately indicate no KH.

Plants in an uncycled tank can create problems. High ammonia levels, combined with low levels of other organisms and you usually get green water blooms. Fishy cycling is not as ricky as fishless in this regard(the fish bring bacteria with them) but the potential still exists if you get readable levels of ammonia and have good lighting.

The cycling article:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64301

Dave
 

daveedka

Purple is the color of Royalty
Jan 30, 2004
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Columbus, ohio
Don't try to adjust the ph, it will just make things worse. Fish are better off in a stable enviornment over one that is constantly being tweaked. I would get a pH buffer that buffers around 6.5 Seachem is good, its a buffer and a declorinator in one product.
While there is seldom a true need to monkey with pH, having a tank with pH that low is not good.
Low pH does not create a stable environment at all. 6.5 is too low. The natural processes in the tank consume carbonate, and lower pH this can be counteracted without chemical additions if your change water has a reasonable KH level. pH reducers are generall acid buffers that remove the carbonate from solution, the carbonate will later leach back into solution and rebound the pH. If the tank was filled with Tap Water and the pH tests at 6.2 after gassing off Co2 then there is no KH in the water. Since 6.2 is below RO levels I would guess there is some kind of acid in play, or the pH was tested without gassing off CO2 first. Most commercial pH buffers contain phosphates which are not very stable. Raising KH and creating a stable enviroment is a fairly simple process, and is covered briefly in the cycling article as well.

Dave
 

dslam

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Jan 17, 2006
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Thanks, this is just what I needed.
With care and attention I'm sure I can coax all the fish through.
 

dslam

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Jan 17, 2006
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Testing my pH today shows it is a tad elevated from previous tests. The test I have indicates around 6.8, my alkalinity is around 40ppm.
There is no way this could be from the plants? Oh well, not easy to tell just what it is. This is a day later I performed the tests again and found pH and alkalinity up.
The Lyre Tail is hanging out at the bottom of the tank alot today, is there any reason for this? He seems less enthused than yesterday. The danios are still happy. Should I perform a 10% water change today?
Temp is still 78, Ammonia still registers 0ppm. Will having 3 rather small plants in my 30g slow the cycle considerably by removing ammonia? No nitrites no nitrates yet, which I expected.
10% water change today?
BTW I am using "Cycle" which has received both positive and negative reviews from many people I have spoken too. I will use a true bacteria starter next time. Is it too late to drop in an ornament or some gravel from an established and healthy freshwater tank?
 

dslam

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Jan 17, 2006
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BTW, other posts have mentioned the low KH and pH of water on the south west coast of Canada. Nearly all of our water comes from lake/resevoirs, and almost all population centers here are at sea level. Remember this is a temperate rainforest, so there is no shortage of collected rainwater from which to draw drinking water.
 

daveedka

Purple is the color of Royalty
Jan 30, 2004
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Columbus, ohio
Is it too late to drop in an ornament or some gravel from an established and healthy freshwater tank?
It's never too late to add extra bacteria, unless the cycle is fully estabilished and all need for more bacteria is gone. Any little bit helps, any big bunch helps more.

The Lyre Tail is hanging out at the bottom of the tank alot today, is there any reason for this? He seems less enthused than yesterday. The danios are still happy. Should I perform a 10% water change today?
HArd to really say, but if ammonia and nitrite are still low, you are in fine shape. I hate to ever ay it's a bad isea to do a water change, but I don't see a need if all levels are undetectable, and you haven't passed enough time to require normal maintenance.

Testing my pH today shows it is a tad elevated from previous tests. The test I have indicates around 6.8, my alkalinity is around 40ppm.
Something is still a tad off unless you have high co2 levels. R/O water typically tests in the range of 6.6(this isn't precise from test to test always)
with 0 Kh.
40 ppm of KH equates to jst over 2 dKH and sshould put your pH around 7.2-7.4. It is possible that you water company has added something to influence the pH, phosphate buffers are common, and will produce fluctuations and odd numbers. If you have 40 ppm KH, it would be enough to fishy cycle without a lot of worry, but you definately will want to monitor to see if there is aconsumption pattern that could cause problems later.

The cycle product as you have read was a waste. It does however contain bacteria that will eat ammonia while it is still alive. it just doesn't stay live for long in ur systems and therefore does us little benefit. Additionally, cycle is notorius for adding a lot of Nitrate to the system. I do not know what else it adds though so I'm not sure if it could play in to the smal rise in pH.

The plants consume Carbonate and phosphate both. Unless the plants died off and decomposed there is no way I know of they could add buffer back into the system. I do not know how fast or how much actual KH they would use, but do know that some is required for proper growth.

Given the early pH tests and subsequent changes I would bet on something being monkeyed with by the water company. There are all kinds of processes used to preserve pipes, and reduce build-up of this or that. those processes are generally harmless, but can throw some funny numbers at us. Ultra soft rainwater is not a bad thing, it just has to be understood and certain necessary elements added to help your long term stability.

Dave
 
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