Ich Issues

Please read thic sticky on ICH in the article section.
The bottom line is, most otc chemical treatments are very stressful on fish. ICH can be killed with salt (2tsp/gallon, yes, that much) and increase in temp
(82-86F, yes, that high)
I have used this treatment on my 180g with great results, and no loss of fish. I have clown loaches, one of the most senstive scale-less fish, and they did fine.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39759

properly utiized the bottom line on many of the ich meds is that they are not that stressful. I have utilized malachite green at 25% dosage levels and had great results with no apparent ill effect on clown loaches. cleared it in 2-3 days and then continued treatment for another 3 days.

I will at this point ask a question that was asked of me (and i did post a couple of answers with no real problem) when discussing meds vs. salt.

"where is the peer reviewed research that demonstrates salt has a greater efficacy in the treatment of ich? And, that it is less stressful to subject fish to a high ppm level of salt and high temperature (with a decreased oxygen level occurring when the increased metabolic rate of the fish demands more oxygen. And, the increased metabolic rate results in an increased rate of fluid loss from wounds caused by the ich) than it is to utilize many of the otc meds?".

just curious.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39759

Again, please read the article. I didn't write it. I gave a summary of it and my experince with said treatment.

Sully said:

"where is the peer reviewed research that demonstrates salt has a greater efficacy in the treatment of ich? And, that it is less stressful to subject fish to a high ppm level of salt and high temperature (with a decreased oxygen level occurring when the increased metabolic rate of the fish demands more oxygen. And, the increased metabolic rate results in an increased rate of fluid loss from wounds caused by the ich) than it is to utilize many of the otc meds?".

just curious.

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Some reading for the curious. It's a good start, but it looks like you have a good plan for your PhD research to answer all of your questions. This paper simply shows that it is highly effective to use plain old salt:

DOI: 10.1577/1548-8640(1990)052<0124:UOCSTT>2.3.CO;2
The Progressive Fish-Culturist 1990;52:124–127
Use of Common Salt to Treat Ichthyophthiriasis in Australian Warmwater Fishes

PETER M. SELOSSE and STUART J. ROWLAND

New South Wales Agriculture and Fisheries, Inland Fisheries Research Station, Post Office Box 182, Narrandera, New South Wales 2700, Australia

Abstract.—Four species of Australian warmwater fishes were treated for ichthyophthiriasis with 5 g common salt/L. Juvenile silver perch (Bidyanus bidyanus), golden perch (Macquaria ambigua), Murray cod (Maccullochella peeli), and catfish (Tandanus tandanus) recovered from infestations of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis within 2 weeks. All fish in the control treatments died. The treatment eliminated the theronts and trophonts from all host fish by day 7 within the temperature range 19–26°C and by day 14 within the temperature range 11–18°C.
DOI: 10.1577/1548-8640(1990)052<0124:UOCSTT>2.3.CO;2

Thanks yuccapatrol. Good to know that the Inland Fisheries Research Station of New South Wales Australia has verified what some of us already know to be true.

I did look at several abstracts just now since I am searching similar journals for other marine invertebrate zoology topics for my graduate program.

One was interesting in that it discussed that commercial aquaculture facilities would find it easier and cheaper to treat ponds with medication/chemicals since salt treatments would require huge quantities of salt to be trucked in.

Fortunately, we benefit from the salt treatments because it is much cheaper and easier on our small scale home aquaria.

oh, i don't doubt salt's efficacy. i am wondering where the "more effective" comes from. in several instances over the years i have found malachite green to be quickest to get the job done (yes, i know it is a carcinogenic and must be handled with care). At the same time I have always wondered about the "osmo regulatory distress" angle. Especially when dealing with more fragile juveniles that are typically the type of fish being treated (the value of a qt tank is oh so easy to learn). And, given the increased metabolic rate, need for higher feeding levels, creation of more waste, and the increased need fo oxygen how it all comes together (i saw an article on parasites written a little over a year ago in the Buntbarsche Bulletin where the same discussion topics took place. Obviously the article was written by a far more knowledgeable and educated man than i).

oh, i don't doubt salt's efficacy. i am wondering where the "more effective" comes from. in several instances over the years i have found malachite green to be quickest to get the job done

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More effective may be a poor choice of words. Better would not be.

As has been repeatedly pointed out over and over and is mentioned in the article. Malechite green is not any quicker than salt, nothing else that your fish can survive is any quicker than salt. None of the commercial meds available, can kill ich while it is on the fish, neither can salt. none of the commercial meds available can kill ich while it is in the substrate, and neither can salt. Salt does not require high temperature any more than the meds do. The time frames for either are the same, and the time frames are dictated by ich. It must fall off the fish and then hatch, at which time it is vulnerable. Until then it is not vulnerable. Once it hatches it only has a few short hours to find a host, and if salt or adequate dosages of meds are in place the ich will die before it finds a host and the protection that host provides. I have yet to find any fish (granted I haven't kept them all) that will react as harshly to salt as it will to full dose medication. I have found many who would not survive full dose meds, but would in fact survive salt. I have yet to find a med that worked with any real success at half dosage. I would much rather put my fish through salt treatment than through malechite green for the time frames that it takes to ensure all ich is dead. additionally I can easily extend those periods with salt and commonly do so for insurance. With meds this simply isn't possible. even the toughest fish won't tolerate meds for any extended period. You yourself cited research showing that Pottassium permangenate only has a 95% kill rate on young ich. Assuming Malechite green, acriflavin, formalin, and so on are in the same realm, there is a least a 5% chance that you will need to treat more than once if you don't extend the treatment periods. All of this adds up to Salt being the better idea.

Half dose meds aren't highly effective, additionally most meds are limited in how long they remain effective (this is why we have to dose daily) So there is fluctuation and vairiables in the actual levels that exist at any given point during the treatment period. There is also the variable of organics since meds attack organic waste as well at the parasites and the fish. The more organics the less effectiveness a dose of meds will have. All of this adds up to meds being more of a gamble than salt for treating ich.

Meds are effective there is no doubt, if they are present in the correct volumes, at the correct times. Salt is effective when it is present in the correct volumes at the correct times. Salt levels are easy to monitor and maintain, med levels are not. Salt levels do not stress fish nearly as much as meds do in any circumstance that I know of, so why anyone would actually put their fish through the stress and gamble of meds (for the purpose of killing ich) is just beyond me.
I do keep meds on hand, there are parasites that salt will not kill, and meds will kill. I don't use those meds for ich, becuase salt makes far more sense.

If people want to use meds that is their choice, But the treatment period needed is the same, and the variables are far greater with meds.

Heat speed up the life cycle and gets the ich off of your fish faster. The faster ich is off your fish the less damage they will endure. Since salt is not as stressful, we can add the heat to speed the cycle. It is generally not reccomended to do this with meds because they are more stressful and the chance of your fish surviving are much slimmer. Heat is not required with either, but will help with either. in any case any tank with ich at whatever temperature will take the same amopunt of time to irradicate whether Salt or meds are present.

Ich does not live well if at all in temperatures above 86*F, some folks push this limit to give ich a double whammy. I don't ever go that high myself.

Dave

Further to what Dave has posted, I would like to address the use of malachite green. Kordon has toxicity warnings posted on their malachite green web page. I would like to cite the following:

http://www.novalek.com/kpd26.htm

Unfortunately, many people are advised to increase the temperature of their tank water while treating for ich. While using products containing malachite green, this can prove disasterous.

M2C
Roan