Ammonia Issue / Vacuuming / Water Changes - Yikes!!

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shibumi2k

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Jan 8, 2006
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Hi Folks,

I've been reading many of the threads, stickys and FAQs, but wanted to hurry up and post also because I may be running out of time and don't want to hurt the fish, so, please bear with me if this has been answered elsewhere (I'll gladly take a link) :)

I have a problem similar to Dan's thread - an ammonia spike - and I'm trying to find the best way of dealing with it...

Some quick facts:

Tank is about 7 ~ 8 weeks old
36 gallon tank w/ an Aquaclear 50 filter
Water temp: 81.9 degrees

This is an African Cichlid tank - 5 "young" cichlids - all at just about an inch or less in size and we also have 4 'starter' danios (before i found out that they shouldn't be used for such a purpose.. to our defense though - the water had been 'cycling' for two weeks before we added the danios..)

I have 'cichlid salt' in the water also (added during water changes)

The fish are fed 3x's a day.. flakes in the morning, then frozen afternoon, then flakes w/ a shrimp pellet or two at night..

I'm using a Nutrafin "Mini Master Test Kit" which uses the one regent for testing ammonia, my current reading is between 1.2 and 2.4 on their color chart (more deep yellow than the orangey on their chart) and my pH is 7.8 - 8.0 - So - I know this is NOT good for them!!

"What happened" - ok... everything was fine w/ the tank until last week - and then several things 'happened'...

1) We began feeding them frozen food - adding it once a day to their 3x feeding schedule... typical bloodworm type stuff... about 1 quarter of a cube each time (they are small cubes) - all food LOOKS like it's consumed.. i cut them up into 'pellet' sized pieces - giving only about '5 pellets' worth each time...

2) We began feeding vegetables - a small leaf of romain lettuce.. a small slice of 'young sweet cucumber' - using a suction cup clip - leave it in for about 2 days and then remove any leftover - if there is any..

3) Started their first weekly treat of live ghost shrimp - added 8 tiny live ghost shrimp that they ate over the next 3 days.. (along w/ their regular 3x feedings)

4) We decided to do our first vacuuming

OK - that's where things went bad... (or at least appeared to)

I noticed a very very slight ammonia increase - not even to .25.. but we decided to do a water change and test the new vacuum. We moved a few of the decorative pieces out to be able to access a section to vacuum and went to work.. sucked up some junk, took about 20% of the water out...

Then we added the water back in (question on this at the bottom), again using the vacuum thing (Python) - added "Aquasafe" for the chlorine / chloramine, and put the deco pieces back in that we had removed..

We also rinsed off the sponge and the charcoal bag - know now that this was wrong... even worse we did it in tap water... it was just covered w/ gravel dust though.. I'm thinking I killed off lots of our bacteria in doing this. We did NOT rinse the bio-bag section though... left it alone (and slimey)

Right away we saw one of the danios was getting 'pecked' at and was near death (dead now)... he was on his side near the bottom of the tank... Initial theory was that ALL of the fish, including the danios, went to 'hide' in the remaining decoration tunnel pieces, and he got in w/ the wrong crowd and they attacked him.. (?? who knows..)

Took him out... and thought nothing of it.. The next day I decided to test the water again - just to see what a wonderful job we did of clearing the ammonia - so i was SHOCKED to see it had actually spiked up!! And then even more so to see it had gone up MORE after doing another 10% water change a day later...

We are now 3 water changes later, and there are no signs of it getting any better...

Now, after reading Dan's thread, I see folks here recommending 50% water changes (i was told by my lfs never to do more than 20%, and for my ammonia now, i really should only do 10% every couple of days) ?? ack!!

Should we start on the 'once a day - 30% - 50%' water change cycle??

If we DO do a water change, should I go ahead and vacuum at the same time?? Do we have tooo much 'stuff' at the bottom (you can't see it when you look in the tank, but some was sucked up when we used the vac).. or do we need that 'stuff' to stay in there to help promote bacteria?? Again, lfs said to only vac once a month - and only a 1/3 of the tank at a time when we do..

If we use the Python to do the water change - WHEN do we add the chlorine / chloramine conditioner?? To the existing tank water before we start adding the new water?? To the tank after the new water has been added? Or abolish the Python altogether and go back to using buckets and condition each bucket.. :( (we're using tap water)

Interesting note on the conditioner - I saw in Dan's thread that too much conditioner can give a false positive on ammonia - and i have taken a "better safe than sorry" approach when adding it.. I'd put about a capful for each 4 gallon bucket change - while it looks like that dosage usually treats 20 gallons .. :-O Maybe that's throwing things off??

I have to say - I don't have the obvious signs of trouble like the gulping of air at the top of the tank.. everyone SEEMS to be swimming fine.. one has gotten a lil more adventurous - less shy.. swimming around more - and one (electric yellow) has calmed down a bit, not speeding all around checking everything - but still swims around... and the rest are behaving the same as they always have... so - hard to tell...

I apologize for the long post - and I appreciate all the folks that have read this far - and ANY help or advice you can provide:

In summary:

High ammonia (almost 2.4 on chart)
Could it be false positive from conditioner?? How will we know?
Should we start daily 30% water changes? (and not add the extra conditioner - or any conditioner at all)
Should we vacuum as much as we can while doing the changes?
If we use this Python system - when should we add conditioner to the tank - before adding the new water - or after (if before, do you add conditioner based on just the amount of NEW water you are adding - or you tank size - i.e. 36 gallons in this case - 1 1/2 capfuls) - or just go back to buckets...

THANK YOU SOOO MUCH for any help!
 
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shibumi2k

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Jan 8, 2006
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Sorry - forgot to add (yes, there's more...)

We've started to develop what looks like brown algae.. one spot on the tank glass and several small 'blotches' on some plants and deco pieces...

We do have a Pleco in there (forgot to mention him too w/ the fish) - but he's really tiny - about an inch..

Do we have to treat that brown algae - or just let it go?? It's not bothering us at all - doesn't look too bad.. just don't want it to get outta control..

Could this be due to the feeding of the veggies??

Plus - we leave out tank line on about 12 hours a day (standard flourencent tank hood light)

Thanks!!
 

mduros

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Sep 20, 2005
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Hi,
Unfortunately, I don't know Cichlids or their needs, but 3 feedings a day seems excessive to me. I feed my fishies twice a day and my current LFS (which is great) is constantly asking me just to tweak it down a notch for the sake of my fish. Fish are little eating machines, that's what they do, swim around and look for edibles most of the time, and from what I've been told, most of the time they're finding something to eat.

What I would do with your water questions is this, 1) test your plain tap water, 2) test plain tap water after adding the drops, 3) test your tank water. This will give you a clear picture on whether those drops are giving false readings.

When all is well with my tank, it's a 55 gallon, I use a 5 gallon bucket and change 15 gallons a week. Sometimes if I feel like giving my fishies a special treat, I give them a mid-week 15 gallon change, too. ;) I ALWAYS use the gravel vacuum. If you have an undergravel filter you only want to vacuum the top layers of gravel because you don't want to suck out the good bacteria from under the bottom filter.

When my fish are not well I will do water changes every day. Sometimes only 5 or 10 gallon changes if time is tight, but I do some everyday. Of course, if your medicating you don't want to change water until the end of the treatment.

I hope this helps and I'm sorry I don't have experience with Cichlids.
Take care,
Mary.
 

shibumi2k

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Jan 8, 2006
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I was pretty surprised by the 3x's a day feeding also, but in my LFS they have a sign that said to feed them 3 times a day - and keep the temp at 82 degrees... One of the guys there even said he feeds his 6 times / day (i don't imagine they are 'full feedings'...)

We always put just enough in so that it's all gone (eaten) w/i a few mins... Also figure that keeping the cichlids satisfied might be keeping the danios from getting eaten :)

Good suggestion on the tap water - I'll give that a shot... I"m getting nervous though as my albino and my 'patchy' cichlid are now both doing an odd behavior (to me) of swimming from the bottom to the top - over and over and over - don't see them going out of the water for air - just saying in corners and doing that top to bottom thing constantly!!

Is that bad news?? Emergency water change?? Help - please!

Thanks...
 

Dan06

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Jan 22, 2006
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My fish picked corners and would swim from top to bottom or zoom from one side to the other during the initial stages of showing stress. About a day later they began gulping at the top of the water.

With ammonia of 2.4, especially with your water temps, I would imagine everyone is going to tell you that it is time for a significant water change.
 

carpguy

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Jul 15, 2002
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Ammonia is more toxic at higher temperatures and at higher pHs, and you're at the high end of both of those. I'd turn the heater down to maybe 75 for the time being. I found a nice article on the rift lakes that has their normal range as being anywhere from the mid 70s to the mid 80s. I'd go to the low end of the range for now: maybe check with the folks in the cichlid forum for temperature tolerance issues.

Fish are cold-blooded: they don't need nearly as much food as we do relative to mass: they don't use any energy keeping their body temps up. They also eat every chance they get, even if they don't really need to.

The nitrogen in the ammonia (NH3) is the waste product from the fish metabolising protein. Fishfood + fish = ammonia. Cut the feeding back until the crisis has passed: 1 light meal a day and try to avoid the protein rich stuff. Ammonia kills fish fast, not feeding them for a week will not hurt them at all.

You can do much more than 20% water changes. Big changes are fine and multiple changes are fine. During a cycling crisis, waterchanges will save your fish.

I usually drop the Amquel (or whatever other dechlorinator) directly into the tank just before I start refilling with the Python. If you're doing daily changes for a little bit (the next week or two) this will also help detoxify the ammonia.

The back and forth thing maybe a distress thing: fish in distress sometimes look like they're trying to find a way out.

Edit: I found a nice article
that explains some of the temperature thing in more detail. The short version is that dropping the temp from 82 to 75 will drop the ammonia's toxicity by about 25% percent.
 
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shibumi2k

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Jan 8, 2006
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Thanks Everyone for the quick replies!! I"m going to go start on a water change now...

I'll follow up in the cichlid forums regarding the water temps.

Thanks again!
 

shibumi2k

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Jan 8, 2006
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The Plot Thickens

mduros said:
What I would do with your water questions is this, 1) test your plain tap water, 2) test plain tap water after adding the drops, 3) test your tank water. This will give you a clear picture on whether those drops are giving false readings.
OK - per Mary's suggestion, I tested my plan tap water for ammonia - 0ppm
I then filled our bucket w/ 5 gallons and added a capful of the Aquasafe (chlorine / chloramine remover) - mixed it up just like I do when I'm adding water to the tank - took a test - and it was OFF THE CHARTS - like a 7.3, but turning more dark orangish (brown?) than the deep yellow I was getting..

Soooooooooooooo - this makes me wonder - is my test tank's ammonia test being thrown off because I was soooo liberal in my use of the Aquasafe??

I'll run to the store and pick up a salicylate based ammonia kit to see if there's a difference...

Figure it can't hurt to do a water change though anyway... ya think?
 

bescher

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Sep 17, 2014
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Ammonia-Issue-Vacuuming-water changes

Through my own personal experiences and lots of forum reading and tons of reading all over you are definitely over feeding the fish. Way too much. As far as the frozen food give it to them as a treat. Maybe once a week. The old adage of give them just enough food for them to eat it all in 1 to 3 minutes or before it hits the bottom ( that's why I have cories) I do once a week water changes. But I also have a 40 gal tank on which is two canister filters rated for 75 gal tanks. 2 sponge filters which are cleaned in aquarium water ( I alternate the filters so one set of a canister and sponge gets attended to every week. No I rarely take out the biomedia other than to rinse them in aquarium water. I also have a DIY floating bed filter ( look on you tube) very very good at biomedia. I check water conditions once a week with a reagent test kit ( NO Strips) very unreliable. I do anywhere from a 20% to 30% water change every week as well ( not on the same day I do filters) I use prime or amquel +. In one canister filter the bottom basket is all filter pads and the other two are biomedia the second filter the third basket has purigen in it. Sorry I am long winded and a little ( HAHA) over filtrated but I belive in keeping things good I have lost one too many fish. It is a planted community tank.

But put any way cut way down on your feelings, like it was said fish can go without eating for a few days. No one hands feed them in the ocean or lake. Do your 20% weekly water changes. Make sure you rinse or clean everything in aquarium water and it doesn't hurt to over filtrate. If you have a hob filter go one or two rated levels than what your tank is rated at. Make sure you have a good air/ water exchange ( the return water flow on your hob helps with that as well as a air stone that will move the surface of the water around. Buy the API test kit, it tests for ammonia, nitrate, nitrites( which is as deadly as ammonia) ph levels and drop your water temp down a few degrees as also suggested here.
I am not saying you don't because obviously you are Read read read and learn and ask. Feel free to ask me or anyone else here questions. But do your water changes and for now do half the tank deep gravel clean and next week do the other side. Once you got everything under control. You won't have to work at doing as much deep moving things around cleaning.

and no the aqua safe did not throw you off.
 

enrique4jc

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Oct 17, 2006
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Cut back feedings. Regular water changes. Maybe even a couple per day until you get your issues under control. Make sure you have a good test kit, and if you're having problems ditch the aqua safe and get yourself some Seachem Prime or API Stress Coat.
 
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