Columnaris, Evil LFS!

dslam · Feb 10, 2006

pH 7.5
Cycled, 0 amm, 0 nitri, 20ppm nitrates (We do W/C when this hits 30 or 40, we have plants.. this never seems to exceed 40 but its only been a month and a half) I should mention we cycled with established filter/media.
1tbsp of aquarium salt for 20 gallons of water, changed with W/C... Just to be on the safe side?
2 swords, 1 platy
6 zebra danios (the cat ate 2

)
1 dead molly (died during cycling)
1 dead gourami (**** lfs)
1 dead columbian shark (**** lfs!!!)

one of the swords is sick now

We picked up a flame gourami from the LFS last weekend. Everything was fine Friday when we brought him home, but in the tank I noticed right away that he had two dull spots that did not seem infected or diseased but simply faded. The scales that should have been red were clear. I thought nothing of it, as I hadn't seen any condition or disease which may have started this way.. However those two spots developed immediately into festering infections that quickly overcame the Gourami who died in 2 days, covered in fungus that had taken advantage of the open sore...

We brought it to the LFS and explained it looked like "Columnaris", he said that wasn't possible and gave us a range of explanations. Refused to replace the fish because he said we had 0.5ppm Ammonia, (our tank is cycled, he is a liar, we checked before AND after bringing him water and there was NO ammonia, NO nitrites, and about 20ppm Nitrates). He advised some uh... water changes?

We carried these out. The next day the Columbian shark bit it. No signs of disease but he is a cat, so I am assuming it hit him quickly within hours.

Now last night I noticed a tiny white spot on the fin of a sword. This looked like it might be ich, oh goody! we were still under the impresson LFS had some sense...

Now I am pretty sure it is columnaris. Overnight the sword's tail was ravaged. It is now 3/4 white and flaking off. Not spots, just pure white fungal infection of a wound goodness...

This guy is a joke! One of his employees cautioned us about doing W/C's weekly after the tank was cycled. Apparently a 20% change weekly will remove some of the bacteria from an established tank... Not what I hear here.

I said Columnaris and he basically said I was dead wrong, and that the Gourami was just stressed because the pH was lower in his tank. I see this as possible but then why the sign of infection (which I discounted at first) that developed into death within days?!
Why the sudden fish loss starting in my tank?!

What should I do? I am under the impression only copper sulfate will kill Columnaris... I am pissed at this loser, there are other better fish stores but he is close so it is convenient. I'll treat the tank today if I can, I understand temp changes don't matter?

Look, this is basically it.. Our water quality is fine AFAIK, and none of the fish had a single problem until that Gourami arrived. I just want some opinions before I flip out on the LFS guy.

beviking · Feb 10, 2006

Columnaris is a very common bacteria. Generally the fish's immune system can fight it off. Weak fish and/or too many bacteria creates a problem irregardless of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, etc.... Any handling of the fish (ie netting) can cause abrasions that allow the bacteria to get past the fish's first line of defense...it's slime coat. Once established on the fish, it's difficult for the fish to get rid of. Anti-biotics work (terramyacin for example). Unfortunately, some broad spectrum anti biotics kill the beneficial bacteria too.

A month and a half is a long time (in a bacteria's life time anyway) to go between water changes. As long as there are sources of food, the bacteria keep multiplying which isn't good for the fish. Since columnaris is a motile bacteria, water changes would help remove some, which is good for the fish. Water changes won't remove enough beneficial bacteria to make any difference.

My suggestion would be to do the water changes and treat for the columnaris.

Good luck.

mduros · Feb 10, 2006

dslam said:
Look, this is basically it.. Our water quality is fine AFAIK, and none of the fish had a single problem until that Gourami arrived. I just want some opinions before I flip out on the LFS guy.

I am in no way an expert, but have thought long and hard about this subject. I recently read an article in Aquarium Fish magazine, which I'm not sure how good their info is, but they had a fairly good explanation as to why most new fish fatalities, and established fish disease outbreaks occur after introducing new fish but are because of the water in the tank and not illness in the new fish.

By each new addition you are causing your water chemistry to change. Your older fish are adapted to the chemistry, whereas the new fish are not. The new fish change the balance you have going on and any opportunistic thing you have lurking around your tank will rear it's ugly head with the new fish that are not adapted to your environment, and any weaknesses or old wounds in your established fish will be compromised.

I have also changed my way of introducing new fish completely due to what the FS that I trust told me to do, and so far, it has worked really well and I have only had one new fish fatality, but no disease outbreaks in my tank since. I bring the bag home, open it, float it, after about 5 minutes put some of the water from my tank in, let it float about 10 minutes, put more tank water in and then 5 - 10 minutes later release the fish. People may tell me that this advice is dead wrong, but so far it's worked like a charm and what my old FS was telling me to do was causing problems.

I also have had alot of luck with the combination of Melafix and Pimafix in curing injuries and diseases in my fish, but have not had columnaris.
Take care,
Mary.

dslam · Feb 10, 2006

If you read the sentence carefully I stated that we do water changes when it hits 30 or 40, and it has not *exceeded* 40ppm. I did not mean to imply we never do W/C. According to the advice I saw here, doing W/C daily or every few days during cycling is a good way to ensure survival of your fish through a fishy cycle (the LFS said don't do W/C for the entire cycle, I was more inclined to trust these forums and lo and behold only 1 fish bit it during cycling, unfortunate but we were overstocked for cycling so this is to be expected)

So if the columnaris is attacking due to poor water quality... why are the other fish fine? Why was everything fine until the addition of the Gourami?
I did list my specs before but I will give them again and pls explain what I am doing wrong:

pH 7.5
temp 78' F
Amm: 0
Nitri: 0
Nitra: 20ppm

3 Red Ludwigia
1 Apongeton (LFS didnt know what kind)

2 "Assorted" Swordtails
1 Red Sunburst Platy
6 Zebra Danios

The last water change was last night, about 30% (the cat had died, wanted to get rid of anything he left behind and also follow advice of the LFS)

The tank has been running for about 6 weeks, it was cycled after 3 (a week after we introduced the used filter/media)

The swords tail has gotten worse in the hour or so since I last posted. What could stress our fish? Everything is fine, the gravel is quite clean, hardly anything stirs up. We have some inverts, ramshorns and pond snails that must have hitched in on the plants. They appeared about 2 weeks ago and their numbers have remained small. At most I might see 4 in the tank if I flip on the light at night. I might add that our plants are doing spectacular, we are using Flourish and we need to find a macro treatment but otherwise fine. We treat our water with Prime in sufficient quantity to eradicate Chlorine and Chloramines..

I don't mind losing this sword. He is my fish, and he is the companion to the platy and the female sword, but he is just a fish and can be replaced. I do not however want to see any more fish suffer because I am being careless or ignorant. If anyone can see a reason why this is occurring please let me know.

dslam · Feb 10, 2006

mduros, you relate how you add fish, this is also our method as advised by each LFS and many internet articles. Thanks for your advice and I will take it to heart perhaps I shouldn't scream at the LFS...
however...
This could be columnaris or it could be something else but what I am concerned about is that the LFS sold me a fish with 2 damaged areas that eventually turned into disease and death then told me that I had ammonia in my tank which did not appear to be the case when I performed the same test twice.
Then my fish began to develop disease and drop...
I am not trying to stick this on the LFS just describing what happened and asking for advice.

I would love it if there was something I could buy, add, do, to wipe this out before it kills all my fish.. That would be much more satisfying than tearing a strip off the LFS guy.

I do understand that I have to allow the bacteria to adjust following the addition of a new fish, and that the death of a fish is also a period that the bacteria will need to adjust to. This is why at most we are adding one fish at a time and monitoring water quality during the period of stress that seems to follow...

We did introduce the swords about 2 weeks into the cycle and of course there was an adjustment period for that but they did remarkably well. I remember the sunburst platy was dull and upset for at least 5 days after being introduced to the tank but he changed dramatically when the tank was cycled and is now one of the most interesting and active fish.

mduros · Feb 10, 2006

dslam said:
mduros, you relate how you add fish, this is also our method as advised by each LFS and many internet articles. Thanks for your advice and I will take it to heart perhaps I shouldn't scream at the LFS...

Who said don't scream at the LFS...? Alot of them deserve it.

They are not going to replace your fish, so there's nothing you can do about that. Though I might try going up the totem pole, usually management of these small shops will buckle rather than see your patronage go elsewhere. But it sounds like they truly don't deserve your business.

Do you use the test strips or test tube tests? I am not sure about the strips but occasionally if the chemicals in the tube tests are old they can give false readings, or so I've been told. Might have even been on this list.

Hopefully someone else will give you more concrete advice.
Good luck,
Mary.

Roan Art · Feb 10, 2006

Okay, ah, guys? Floating a bag that has been through harryknowswhat in your tank? Don't float bags in your tank. You don't know where it's been or what could have dripped on it.

Gently pour the fish and water into YOUR small, clean container and then continue what you normally do. LFS bags = bad juju. Best to be safe than sorry.

As for the waterchanges -- you really should not use nitrate levels as a measure of when to change your water. Nitrates are only one of the things that need to be removed from the tank. You also need to keep a handle on TDS and DOCs. TDS, Total Dissolved Solids, and DOCs, Dissolved Organic Compounds, can only be changed out with regular water changes. That means more than when the nitrates hit a certain level. The entire package is pollution and the only solution to that is dillution with water changes.

TDS -- think of it as having your fish swim in water that is slowly turning into a jello-like state (okay, that's an extreme, but I want to get a good visual here). They can't really regulate their bodies properly, because there are too many "solids". Introduce a new fish and all tanks will have to adjust, even if you don't really see it. That spells stress and if the fish can't regulate their bodies, even more stress, paving the way for a mass infection.

So, your LFS is correct IMHO, that it could very well be your water that is causing the problem.

Also:

1tbsp of aquarium salt for 20 gallons of water, changed with W/C... Just to be on the safe side?

Not sure what you are doing here. Did you do this during the cycle period, or are you continuing to do this? Long term salt use is detrimental to your fishes' health. The only way to remove salt is by water change, so if you "change" the salt by adding the same amount with the water change, you are, in fact, raising the amount of salt in the water. This type of thing will also raise the TDS in the tank.

Roan

dslam · Feb 10, 2006

Roan Art said:
Also:
Not sure what you are doing here. Did you do this during the cycle period, or are you continuing to do this? Long term salt use is detrimental to your fishes' health. The only way to remove salt is by water change, so if you "change" the salt by adding the same amount with the water change, you are, in fact, raising the amount of salt in the water. This type of thing will also raise the TDS in the tank.

Roan

Just following some of the advice of the LFS on the salt and the floating the bag. I will stop using salt? I was keeping a molly and a columbian shark though, or did you actually read the posts?

Roan Art · Feb 10, 2006

dslam said:
Just following some of the advice of the LFS on the salt and the floating the bag. I will stop using salt? I was keeping a molly and a columbian shark though, or did you actually read the posts?

The shark and molly are dead and no longer in the tank, therefore out of the picture.

But since you commented: Columbian sharks are brackish water. Mollies are fresh water. The rest of your fish are fresh water.

You cannot keep a Columbian shark in aquarium salt. It has to have a marine salt or it will die. Freshwater fish will die in marine salt.

If you decide to get another Columbian shark and more mollies, you'll have to set up a brackish tank just for it, and then you can acclimate the mollies to brackish water.

If you do that, you'll either have to get a new tank for the freshwater fish or take them back.

You will have to purchase a hydrometer or a refractometer to track the tank salt content.

Roan


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Columnaris, Evil LFS!

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