Blood Parrot hybrid misinformation

JimG · Mar 18, 2003

Hi I found this forun through a search on Blood Parrot Cichlids (BPs) from which I was linked to an article on this site inwhich it was stated that BPs usually produced sterile eggs due to them being hybrids. This is completely false information. Hybrid offspring from two different parent species consist of males which are always sterile and females which are generally fertile. This is why with BPs some people have been able to further hybridize by mating a female BP with a male convict.

I have 4 BPs between 4" and 5" in a 55gal tank with 6 congo tetras as dither fish. I have kept a variety of cichlids in past as well as other fresh water community tank classic species and I very much enjoy my BPs, I find them to be responsive, attractive and hardy.

thom336 · Mar 18, 2003

actually, to my knowledge the males are not always sterile, and it is possible to breed parrot cichlids almost 'true' and 'pure'. however, i would not recommend the breeding of them, as they are a very deformed fish. you must be one of the first people i have heard of who refers to them as attractive, although i must admit they can have a great personality.

Tiger15 · Mar 18, 2003

Originally posted by JimG
BPs usually produced sterile eggs due to them being hybrids. This is completely false information. Hybrid offspring from two different parent species consist of males which are always sterile and females which are generally fertile. This is why with BPs some people have been able to further hybridize by mating a female BP with a male convict.

You are actually perpectuating further misinformation. There is no proof, only rumor or lie, that BP is hybrid in the first place. An TPH article couple years ago did a research and came to the conclusion that BP is likely a mutant Midas with deformity. The mutant genes are recessive and when two mutants mate, the paired up recessive genes become fatal and therefore their eggs are infertile.

However, when one BP mate with another normal fish, even if the mate is not the same species, they produce fertile eggs. BP will produce fertile eggs with a normal Midas, convict and probably other closely related CA cichlids.

Fish hybrids are typically fertile and normal looking. Look at Flowerhorn, live bearers, and many Malawyan and Tanganyikans hybrids.

This BP being a hybrid between Midas and Severum rumor is so widespread that even experts like Louselle and Ron Coleman have accepted it without independent research. Midas is a CA and Severum is a SA and they are so remotely related that very unlikely that they can sussessfully cross breed.

thom336 · Mar 18, 2003

what planet have you been living on tiger? it is well known that the parrot cichlid is a hybrid, it is ultimately undoubtable. and if it isnt, then i want the proof...in the form of its scientific name. hybrids do not carry one, and almost every shop here labels it as 'parrot cichlid hybrid', there is masses of media around it condeming it because it is a hybrid, and Britains foremost and leading expert on cichlids Mary Bailey has it labeled as a hybrid. its origin is between two or more central american cichlids, of which they have not been stated, and rumours have aroused as to which they are.

wetmanNY · Mar 18, 2003

Originally posted by JimG
it was stated that BPs usually produced sterile eggs due to them being hybrids. This is completely false information. Hybrid offspring from two different parent species consist of males which are always sterile and females which are generally fertile.

Jim P apparently doesn't realize that sex in fishes is not chromosome-determined, as it is with mammals (and, independently evolved, with birds too.)

The industry forces behind these two moneymaking hybrids, Red Parrots and Flowerhorns, are being geared up now to counter any negative information on these manmade staples of the Singapore and Malaysian fishmills.

Genetic incompatibilities sufficiently account for Red Parrot deformities.

thom336 · Mar 18, 2003

i think personally that JimG has made some fine points, except the one thing i pointed out earlier about the sterile males. i dont see the point that you are making wetman...how did you approach the topic of chromosome sex cell determination?

c'mon...its his first post (and a bloody good one in my opinion, to go in like that), so cut the guy a bit of slack aie and stop trying to find faults where there are none!

wetmanNY · Mar 18, 2003

http://www.e-borneo.com/insideborneo/leisure0220.html
Now here's the real flavor of hybrid Flowerhorn cichlids. Breeder Paul Yii of Malaysia says they're a cross between a Rift Lake African cichlid and a Giant Gourami, Osphronemus goramy! Take that! Paul Loiselle!

And he should know, because he's selling them like hotcakes.

A little feng-shui. It is not recommended, according to this link, to place the aquarium where it faces the kitchen, nor in a bedroom, nor under the home altar! Inauspicious!

Check it out! Here's an expert you'd be more likely to trust!

A less zany approach to hybrid cichlids is taken by Ron Coleman:
http://cichlidresearch.com/parrot.html

wetmanNY · Mar 18, 2003

http://www.geocities.com/parrotcichlid/history.html

Anyone interested in the mysterious history of this hybrid, which came on the market in Taiwan, will want to scope the Parrot Cichlid page. Though the parentage of the Red Parrot is treated as a "trade secret", it seems that Taiwan fishfarms are able to reproduce the hybrid using a male "Cichlasoma citrinellum" (midas cichlid) and a female "Cichliasoma synspilum" (redhead cichlid). However, the author of the brief note at the site, Shing Lam, doubts the purity of the parent stock in Taiwan.

AikidoGuy · Mar 18, 2003

i wonder what we'd get if we crossed a tiger and my cat??

JimG · Mar 18, 2003

Re: Re: Blood Parrot hybrid misinformation

Originally posted by wetmanNY
Jim P apparently doesn't realize that sex in fishes is not chromosome-determined, as it is with mammals (and, independently evolved, with birds too.)...

Genetic incompatibilities sufficiently account for Red Parrot deformities.

Mammals and birds both have sexual characteristics phenotyped via chromosomal differences (though with the avians it is XX for male) but all chordates have sex determined by their genes even if in many cases environmental factors can catalyze which genes are phenotyped (as with some reptiles and also monotremes in which temperature differences as the embryos develope in their eggs will cause them to come out male or female).

What I am talking about though really is unaffected by all this as none of this has anything to do with how gamates form in chordates in the first place, which is via meiosis and it is here in hybridization - between two species separated long enough to have too many accumulated varied mutations to have genome which completely match up - where the sperm doesn't come out right but where the eggs can.

In fish hybrids (that is hybrids actually between two different species and not just subspecies) just as with mammal and bird and reptile hybrids the males are shootin' blanks while the females can be further hybridized.

If you don't believe that severum played a part in the 'creation' of blood parrots check out the 3rd post on the following thread http://bloodparrot.aquariahobbyist....cgi?s=3e6030d848d7ffff;act=ST;f=1;t=258;st=30
it contains a pic of a juvenile blood parrot next to a juvenile severum. I think the family resemblance goes beyond them just both being cichlids but you decide for yourself.

I do agree though that the so called 'deformities' blood parrots are said to suffer can be readily explained by hybridization between two species quite far apart and distant from their common ancestor in evolution. My blood parrots really don't have any of the problems I have seen described - they can all close and open their mouths and bite, they show no signs of swim bladder problems and their spines are no more 'deformed' than those of angel fish or discuss whose body types theirs are reminiscent of. Inline breeding (inbreeding) can cause deformities by the compounding of recessive maladaptive genes but these traits in selective breeding are removed by culling of the deformed offspring and re-breeding of fish with desirable traits but without the undesirable ones. One cannot do this with blood parrots as they cannot be bred together BPxBP because the males are all sterile and if you want an F2 generation the only thing you can do is find a convict or some other closely related cichlid to be a sperm donor.

It is completely readily apparent that blood parrots cannot be just mutant midases, red devils nor any other single cichlid species because if they were anyone could continue to inline breed them, cull the undesirable traits and select for the desirable ones.

Thanks to those who gave me kind words of welcome and encouragement on this forum - I think I like it here and shall select a nice flat rock against the tank wall to claim territory.


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Blood Parrot hybrid misinformation

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