Help - water problems! (long post)

Pam Lowrey · Apr 12, 2003

Hi again everyone,

First of all, thanks for the help w/ my Betta. He is doing much better now that I've taken the tree stump out & put a couple of plastic plants in the tank.

Second, I've put 3 little (< 1 inch each) Neon Tetras in the 5 gal tank w/ him & am now having water problems, I think. (I know, I shouldn't have gotten the Tetras, but it's a long story...) I've had the tank up & the Betta in there since March 22nd. I started measuring water chemistry on the 26th & the measurements have been as follows:

3/26 -
pH: 7.8 (tap pH = 8.8 after adding water conditioner & sitting for 24 hours)
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: didn't measure
kH: ~89.5 ppm (5 dH)
GH: ~125.3 ppm (7 dH)

3/29 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5.0 ppm (tap = 0 ppm)

3/30 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm

3/31 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm
*did 1 gallon water change w/ conditioned tap water

4/2 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5 ppm

4/3 -
Thought the tank was cycled, so added the Neon Tetras

4/5 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5 ppm
*did 1 & 1/2 gallon water change w/ bottled water (1 gal) & tap water

4/6 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite 0.25 ppm
Nitrate 5 ppm
*did another 1 & 1/2 gallon water change (all tap)

4/7 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0.25 ppm
Nitrate 5 ppm
*did another 1 & 1/2 gallon water change (1 gal bottled & 1/2 gal tap)

4/8 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0.25 ppm
Nitrate 5.0 ppm

4/9 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 0.5 ppm
Nitrate 5 ppm
* did 1 & 1/2 gallon water change (all tap)

4/10 -
pH: 7.8
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0.5 ppm
Nitrate: 5 ppm
* Went to LFS & had them measure water - they measured the Ammonia at 1 ppm & told me that was more of a concern than the Nitrite levels, so I went home & did a 2 gallon water change (all tap) and added 1/2 teaspoon AmQuel to neutralize the Ammonia.

4/11 -
pH: 7.6
Ammonia: 0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 0.5 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm
*did 1 & 1/2 gallon water change

4/12 -
pH: 7.6
Ammonia: 0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 0.25 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm

And that's where I'm at. I can't figure out what's going on & have been told adding an air stone will reduce the Nitrite levels (by the LFS). I now think that the tank didn't really start cycling until I put the Tetras in it. But how long should it take for a 5 gallon tank to cycle? I keep doing the water changes b/c everything I read says that if you can measure the Ammonia & Nitrite levels, they're too high for the fish. But I can't seem to get the levels down. Any ideas?

Thanks for reading such a long post.

Allison Reed · Apr 12, 2003

Cycling a 5 gallon shouldn't take more than a week. But, with the new fish, your cycle is obviously getting used to the new amounts of fish waste

The daily water changes are good, and keep taking results. I have a 2.5 gallon that i *have* to do almost daily water changes for because of the small amount of water. And i hsould think 3 tetras and a betta would be ok...5 gallon hex? is pretty big for a betta even... I had one in a 2.5 and he was good.

Pam Lowrey · Apr 12, 2003

Thanks! I used to have the Betta in a "Betta Cove" bowl of less than 1 gallon, so he's loving all the extra space now.

Pam Lowrey · Apr 14, 2003

Hi again... I did another water change today (1 & 3/4 gal) b/c the measurements were up:

pH: 7.4 (down from yesterday's 7.6)
Ammonia: 0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 1.0 ppm
Nitrate: 20 ppm

& then remeasured the "3 Ns" right after the change to see what effect it had on the measurements. They were as follows:

Ammonia: 0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 0.5 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm

So, I'm thinking I might need to do a larger water change tomorrow b/c this one didn't seem to reduce the Ammonia at all & still left measurable Nitrites & Nitrates.

My question is, how big a water change can I get away with? It's only a 5 galllon tank, so even a 2.5 gallon water change would be 50% & I've read that changing too much of the water at one time kills off the bacteria, or maybe I'm misunderstanding what I read.

Also, I've been feeding the fish daily & am wondering if maybe I should stop feeding them. The betta could stand to go on a diet anyway, but I'm worried about the little Neon tetras. They're so little I can't tell if they're getting anything to eat except if I see them snatch a bite or two as the food floats down past the betta.

Any suggestions/comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

JSchmidt · Apr 14, 2003

First of all, the size of a tank has no bearing on the time it takes to cycle. The limiting factor is the rate at which the beneficial bacteria reproduce, something that has absolutely nothing to do with tank size. As long as there is food (e.g., ammonia/nitrite) for the bacteria in excess of what they can consume, they'll continue to grow in number.

Next, in a cycling tank with fish, you should strive to keep ammonia at or below 1 ppm and nitrite at or below .5 ppm. The easiest way to do this is through water changes. This won't slow your cycle. The water does not contain substantial numbers of the beneficial bacteria (they adhere firmly to surfaces and aren't free floating). Also, as long as there is food in excess of what the bacteria can consume, they'll reproduce. I've never seen any evidence that a cycle proceeds more slowly if you let ammonia get to 3 ppm vs. 1 ppm. We know for a fact that the fish will be more comfortable at the lower level, though.

You can also keep ammonia low by reducing the frequency of feeding to every other day. This won't adversely affect your fish, but it will reduce the amount of ammonia produced.

On thing you might want to find out, to help you interpret your test results: does your water contain chloramines? Chloramines ar a more stable disinfectant added to water by utilities. They are comprised of both chlorine and ammonia. Therefore, water treated with chloramine will test positive for ammonia, often in the .5 to 1.0 ppm range. It's good to know if your water contains chloramines so you can get an idea if water changes are adding any ammonia back to the tank. To check, dechlorinate your water from the tap, then test for ammonia. (If you're using Prime, Amquel or AmmoLock, the test results may be misleading if you use some of the more common ammonia tests. If you don't use one of those conditioners, your numbers should be accurate.)

HTH,
Jim

Pam Lowrey · Apr 14, 2003

Thanks for the suggestion about checking the local water supply. Duh! I should have thought of that... & sure enough, the ammonia reading from "dechlorinated" tap water that had been sitting for at least 24 hours was 0.25 ppm - the same as my tank.

Makes sense now that I think about it, b/c the local water comes from Lake Springfield, most recently noted for being the source of a few local cases of Leptospirosis a couple of years ago. (yikes!)

Anyway, I did a 2 gallon water change w/ bottled water (confirmed ammonia = 0 ppm) & retested. The ammonia & Nitrite levels were down, finally! Guess this means I'm stuck using bottled water in the tank.

Note to self - neutralized chloramine DOES NOT equal eliminated chloramine!

JSchmidt · Apr 15, 2003

In a cycled tank, the small amount of ammonia you'll with chloriminated water should quickly get taken up by the biofilter. A conservative practice would be to use Amquel as your water conditioner; it would detoxify the ammonia, yet leave it available for the biofilter to process.

While cycling, using bottled water is certainly a good option.

Good luck,
Jim

ChilDawg · Apr 15, 2003

To reinforce what Jim was saying, I actually use bottled H2O full time, since Bloomington has what can only be characterized as !-ahem-! questionable water. I believe that there is some sort of protozoan found nowhere else in the world in our tapwater and that one of my school's profs found it but I have never had the guts to ask her to corroborate that info.

Since I like consistency with my fishes' water, I use distilled bottled both here and at home. HTH, Matthew

Pam Lowrey · Apr 16, 2003

Thanks for the advice! BTW - how big is a Nitrite "spike"? I tested my water again last night & found this:

pH: 8.4 (???) - I tested it 3 times - twice w/ a test strip & once with liquid.
Ammonia: <0.25 ppm (yay!)
Nitrite: 5.0 ppm (yikes!!!)
Nitrate: 20 ppm (yikes again)

What could possibly be going on? I did a 1 & 1/2 gallon water change w/ bottled spring water (confirmed pH of 7.4) after testing & am hoping that things will calm down soon. Those poor little fishies are probably way stressed out by now.

wetmanNY · Apr 16, 2003

At that pH, almost all that ammonia is in its toxic, non-ionized form. Water changes are in order.

A quarter teaspoon of table salt will help your fishes over the temporary nitrite spike. The chloride ion in salt competes with nitrite for uptake at the fishes' gills. Later, water changes will dilute it all out.

Ammonia at the tap source means that your water utility uses chloramines. Very toxic. Use your dechlorinator without fail.

Does the pH of your water drop after it has sat out for a day in a bowl? Check this for me.

Would you consider getting some floating plants? Water Sprite maybe. Or just some duckweed. It will make your betta more secure.


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Help - water problems! (long post)

Pam Lowrey

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Allison Reed

Sushi Lovin' Aquarist

Pam Lowrey

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Pam Lowrey

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JSchmidt

Cowbell! I need more cowbell!

Pam Lowrey

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JSchmidt

Cowbell! I need more cowbell!

ChilDawg

Math is sexy.

Pam Lowrey

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wetmanNY

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