Illness Treatment, Diagnosis assistance required...

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NeonJulie

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Nov 13, 2006
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Diary of sadness: Any ideas, any help, any thoughts, any comments, greatly greatly desired... My fish have now been sick for 4 straight weeks, out of 5.

Parameters:

80-81 degrees, no other variance, not even during water changes
Ammonia - never moves from Safe, none present
NitrItes 0
NitrAtes - 10 ppm before water change, 5 ppm after water change. Highest ever seen was 18-20 ppm.

12g Acryclic tank Fishlessly Cycled
Stocking started: 1 Dwarf Gourami, 6 Neons, 3 Otos - all flourished, ate well, grew well in color until Day 8.

*Dwarf Gourami was closely watched as his color appeared to rule out problems like Velvet - never confirmed, seemed healthy until Day 8.
*1 Neon was purchased or developed in transit, to have a missing piece of gill on oneside, where a large red exposed area was. Despite this problem, and the fact that the more she grew, the more it grew, and never healed, other than this she was very healthy and intelligent. (She finds the falled food first usually.)




Day 8 of Acclimation:
Problem: One white spot stuck to head of Neon.
(Would later rethink that the "cute playing with their face's reflection" was probably rubbing their gills on glass.)

Reaction: Added Aquarium Salt per box recommendations: 1 TBSP / 5 gallons. (6 TSP, actually dosed for 10g, not 12g.)

Result: Next day the one spot dropped off. Thought I was in good shape.

Day 10: Day 1 of Ich Treatment
Problem: Almost all fish develop 1-2 white salt like spots. Ich is hard hitting. Begin to breathe with lots of difficulty, dash on rocks, very much distressed.

Reaction: Turned up heat from 80-81 to 83-84. Lowered water level 3" for increased oxygen.

Result: Fish are very stressed, unhappy.

Reaction: Advised to increase salt amount to 2 tsp/gallon gradually. Can see fish reviving a little more each time it's added. First time they begin to act less lethargic (not laying on gravel.)

Day 11: Day 2 of Ich Treatment
Problem: Lost track of salt when taking out tank water to dissolve the remaining recommended amount.

Reaction: Advised to water change and remove the salt as an estimate 3tsp/gallon ended up in the tank. Had been leaving just a lamp on in their room, and the aquarium light off, and trying to keep the area noiseless to lower any stress.

Result: Not in time, lost the dwarf gourami which was not coping well. Must have died in fifteen minutes or less since I'd last seen him. (Unfortunately, testing of a subwoofer sound system from the home theatre professional servies office nearby was ensuing; unsure if related.)

Day 12: Day 3 of Ich Treatment
Problem: Fish not coping well

Reaction: Advised to drop temperature down, as the salt would take care of Ich eventually, and the higher temp was only increasing the activity of the ich/stressing out the fish. Some low-activity water changes, and very slow gravel vac'ing to try and suck up the offenders.

Result: Fish seem to cope better. Flashing/darting for the most part disappear.


Day 15: Day 6 of Ich Treatment
Problem: Finally see the last ich dots drop off, after almost a week of solid spots.

Reaction: Water changes (before vacation) including matching of the salt replacement. At or a little above (estimated 2.25 tsp/gallon) recommendations.

Results: One very sick fish appears to lose lots of color from his body, but when he recovers after 5 days, color returns, except large white patches on his red tail/body.

Day 21: Day 12 of Ich Treatment
Problem: 3-4 fish look raggedy, including white stringy things around the mouth that I took for Ich scarring.

Reaction: Water changes, replacing of salt, etc. One to twice weekly, feeding garlic oil soaked vitamin food. (Contined use of Melafix since they were put in the tank.)

Day 24: Day 15 of Ich Treatment - STOP SALT
Problem: 3-5 fish now have spreading white opaque areas on the area that should be red, towards the back of their body, in addition to their stringy white mouths. Advised that this sounds like Columnaris. Do research, find that Mouth Fungus is the onset of bacteria called Columnaris. Present in the environment, takes advantage of changes in temperature, fish
weakness, etc.

In addition, the worst one with the first white patch, now had a white wormy thing growing out of its patch!

Reaction: Told to use Maracyn/Karmacyn. Go to fish store. Fish store doesn't have anything but Copper Safe (and she is convinced white wormy thing is a parasite like anchor worms.) Purchase Copper Safe and Jungle Anti-Parasite food. Treatment begins.

Water change, and because the Copper Safe treats for Ich/parasites, do not replace any salt.

Result: No apparent adverse reaction to the medication. In a few days, notice that the wastes of the fish are different - much more, red to white in color, and seems to be really cleaning them out. Bellies full, appetite good, etc. (Food is not their favorite, but all 6 Neons appear to eat at least some of it.)

The Otos have decided they no longer like either of the wafer brands I've been trying to entice them with - but seem busy "eating" all over the tank, with mostly rounded bellies.

Day 28: Day 1 of Maracyn - Day 4 of Copper Safe Ich Treatment (Day 19)

Problem: White patches not retreating. Tank is also cloudy (problem from the food they aren't eating and the removal of the carbon filter.)

Reaction: Travel some hours to obtain Maracyn and Jungle Anti-biotic food. Assumed Maracyn II wasn't needed, and didn't want to overmedicate. Begin treating with Pimafix as well (continued daily use of Melafix.) Carbon filter still out, but the smaller filter in there to preserve nitrification, as before. Also using a few extra drops of Prime to help with slimecoat.

Result: Tank clears up. Everyone ok, active and coping well with the fresh water, the lack of salt in tank, etc. Eating well, but Otos still not interested in algae wafers, bellies still seem full. Next day or so Mouth Fungus appears to clear - fish finally look better. Patches not retreating much.

Day 30: Day 3 of Maracyn - Day 7 Copper Safe Ich Treatment (Day 23 of no signs of Ich)

Problem: White patches not retreating. One fish still has, perhaps worsening, mouth fungus. Disturbed to see that the old Ich behaviors are returning:

Fish act as if oxygen is lacking. One Oto in particular leaves off eating, and sticks itself to objects at the waterline, where it's head remains. Neons and Otos repeat spending lots of time rubbing their gills on the glass, like before.

Reaction: Gradually added the salt back in - but only 3-4 tsp, in the 12g. Predissolved in water, and slowly administered in the course of an hour.

Result: The worst. The next morning, an Oto (possibly the previously mentioned one, sitting at the water line), was stiff, on the bottom of the gravel. All of it's fins were fully extended, not limp. The Otos, despite not eaching much, look really really full in their bellies. Hope the salt isn't making them bloated.

Day 31: Day 4 of Maracyn - Day 8 Copper Safe Ich Treatment and minor salt

Problem: Dead Oto, fish not coping well. One of it's two buddies, is copying it's previous behaviour of sticking to chords right below the water level and not eating much. I am very stressed, hoping he doesn't follow the other.

Reaction: Water change, 1/3, salt not added back in. Fish seem to cope better, become more active again. Go back to regular omnivore flake feeding hoping the Oto's appetites will return. Blanched Spinach added to the tank, since the only one interested in the algae wafer, is my sickest neon who snacks on it all day. Remaining Otos seem to be less ready-to-burst looking. Still look like bellies are full.

Result: Fish seem more active. Strangely, one Neon vomits 3 or 4 times a fairly large amount of food fed about 1-2 hours previously immediately following water change.

Day 32: Day 5 (supposedly final) of Maracyn - Day 9 of Copper Safe and minor salt

Problem: TONIGHT, A WHITE SPOT HAS APPEARED ON THE WHITISH PATCH OF THE SMALLER/SICKEST FISH. THERE APPEAR TO BE AT LEAST 2 OTHER NEONS WITH WHITE SPOTS. Possible reoccurance of the feared Ich!!! Fish are twitching and clamping, very uncomfortable. Otos aren't eating much, and spent most of the time racing up and down and back forth across the tank, perpendicular to the tank (not flat up against like they eat), and rubbing faces on glass frantically. Spending a lot of time around the surface.

Was told I was leaving the light on too long, so turned light off early tonight, 6 pm. Observed in the night light, how they would act with the light off.

Symptoms were scarrier: A few minutes after the light turned off, the Neons left searching for food, and began to ram themselves up against the glass and flashing frantically off the rocks. The otos, one of which has already done this all day long, begins to ram itself down headlong on the gravel repeatedly, as well as all over the tank horizontally.

I can't remember having seen so many of the fish, suffer to this intensity. Since today was supposed to be the last day of the anti-biotics, I am contemplating very large water changes, Mela and Pima and leaving the rest up to the fish!


WHAT DO I DO NOW?

I am concerned if I go back to the salt treatment which they barely made it through, it will kill them off, as I think it probably killed the Oto the day before yesterday. (And that was a small dosage!)

It was irritating to me to have Maracyn make doses in 10g - my tank is a 12g. I had to estimate on adding just a bit to make up the difference.

Should I try Maracyn II? Should I try Tetracycline? Should I try something for FUNGUS instead of bacteria/parasite?!?! Should I go back to the salt because maybe these things are darned if I do, and darned if I don't?!?!
 

Mahma

AC Members
Dec 22, 2006
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I cannot help much, but just wanted you to know that you're doing a great job...

...of recording the events and relaying them to the folks around this forum who can help. I am such a newbie, I cannot offer much more than encouragement. Hang in there. I know someone will have some worthwhile advice!
 

Star_Rider

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Dec 21, 2005
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Nice log.

I have had problems with salt in treating Ick. there is thought that there could be a strain that is resistant to salt treatment.
that said..i always raise temp when treating for parasites as they have a hard time with heat..salt and heat are generally recommended by many..including breeders.

that said..bacterial infections are treated differently ..lowering temps tend to slow the progression of bacterial

when salt and heat don't work on ick(remember ick is treatable in the free swimming stage..which is after they fall off and incubate(incubation can take 1-2 weeks raising the temp tends to speed this up)..
when this failed I was lucky as I had recieved a bottle of their ick guard(formalin,salt and victoria green) I used it and it worked.


i suspect the ick may have weakened your fish and they became suseptible to other infections(typical adverse effect of ick)

while some have had good results form pimafix and melafix..I have not ..
I try not to over medicate my fish..If I suspect internal parasites I treat for that.if after the treatment the fish show no signs of improvement..I reconsider the treatment and possible problem.

while you can mix a cocktail for parasites and or bacterial. my personal choice is to not try a shotgun approach and treat for both.

hang in there..keep up on water changes
 

Blueiz

THE TypoQUEEN
Sep 5, 2005
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Even if the salt didnt kill the ick, the copper safe would have.

Double check your water parameters. If I understood correctly, yu have used an antibiotic, most likely that has damaged, possibly wiped out your biological filter. I seriously think you are throwing to many meds at these fish at one time, I also think that having all those meds present is the what is wrong with your fish now..like swiming in a bottle of cough syrup...

I reccomend stopping all meds, you said the antibiotic was finished, so you dont have to worry about stopping it prematurely. Doing gradual water changes to get the water back "clean" , see if your fish improve. Sounds to me more like fungus or ulcers on your fish. Have any pix of the infected fish?

Blue
 

NeonJulie

Worlds' Worst Mafia Voter
Nov 13, 2006
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Even if the salt didnt kill the ick, the copper safe would have.

Double check your water parameters. If I understood correctly, yu have used an antibiotic, most likely that has damaged, possibly wiped out your biological filter. I seriously think you are throwing to many meds at these fish at one time, I also think that having all those meds present is the what is wrong with your fish now..like swiming in a bottle of cough syrup...

I reccomend stopping all meds, you said the antibiotic was finished, so you dont have to worry about stopping it prematurely. Doing gradual water changes to get the water back "clean" , see if your fish improve. Sounds to me more like fungus or ulcers on your fish. Have any pix of the infected fish?

Blue
I test my water parameters every day - I have seen no change or rise or anything since using the antibiotic. No ammonia, no NitrItes, Nitrates which don't even go past 5ppm these days (probably because I'm gravel vaccing once to three times a week). Not a single blip - and if one of those tests were faulty, wouldn't there be varying results? They are very consistent. (In a good way at least.)

Even mods on this site have recommended running two meds at once - they had two different problems overlapping. The only thing the fish have appeared to react to, was the 1/2 dose of salt. (Even though that has appeared to be the only thing that worked before.) I'm not overdosing the Mela and Pima, and that isn't considered actual medications is it?

Seeing as they survived today, the carbon went back in and I'll follow up with water changes today. After that, I'll probably observe them for 4-5 more days. I'll probably continue Melafix unless said otherwise.

But I'm very confident (unfortunately), that the white patches will remain - they appeared and spread fast when there weren't any medication (but salt) in the tank, and have remained. At this time it doesn't appear that they are worsening, but they are not leaving either.

Thank you for relieving my fears about the Ich. This bacteria thing could be affecting their gills though, or it could be that some undetectable things are in the water, since the filter has been out for 10 days, and maybe after the carbon and fresh water, they might be able to fight it off.

I'm not sure if I'll be able to get photos... it's probably time I do, especially since each fish looks different. I'll see if it's possible. In the meantime, I am less inclined to think that it's fungus because it doesn't appear to have the exterior fuzziness (like fruit mold) mentioned... Aside from the white wormish looking thing I see on the worst area, about once a week, it's flat and looks like its under the surface. Is it possible that it is a fungus, but just hasn't gotten to the point of being fuzzy? I guess so.
 

5xevy

Member #62,749
Jan 3, 2007
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What "treatment" did you use in the beginning? Just curious. Also, some fish are extremely sensitive to even trace amounts of copper.

One of the things about ich is that even when it appears gone, it may very well not be. Treatment should still continue. Do you have a QT tank? The lights off doesn't really "help" with any treatment, but some prefer it to put less stress on the fish by avoiding a bright environment while they're going through this.

Ich is an uphill battle which can be defeated. You seem very concerned for the well-being of your fish, which is very respectable. Personally, I think I would keep with the salt/heat treatment while doing constant water changes and gravel vacs. Good luck! Please let us know what happens.
 

5xevy

Member #62,749
Jan 3, 2007
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Upstate, NY
Also, as soon as you mentioned a cotton-substance, I also thought of columnaris (which is no fun either as my brother just recently went through this). Stressed fish can easily get this.

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/columnaris.htm


If it is bacterial, I would suggest Melafix.

http://www.fishjunkies.com/Medications/melafix.php


Although, I am not one to mix a lot of meds at the same time. Perhaps medicated foods would help if they're eating.

I'm really sorry you're going through this.
 

Blueiz

THE TypoQUEEN
Sep 5, 2005
5,668
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NC
Using six diffrent meds at one time- salt, coppersafe, melafix, primafix, maracin, medicated food- is extremely stressful on your fish. either one of those alone, with the exception of melafix and primafix, will greatly stress your fish. My suggestion was to remove the meds gradually and see how your fish respond..
 

Dangerdoll

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I would go about that as well. For a while now, I'm not really a true fan of meds anyway, would rather have problems work themselves out with water changes and if the big guns were needed, salt and temp would do.
 

NeonJulie

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Nov 13, 2006
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Hmm. Well the medicines came out yesterday with a new carbon filter, spent most of the afternoon sucking everything from the gravel I could, and dechlorinated water-rinsing everything like the plants, etc. Tank is probably the cleanest it's been since the fish went in. They certainly seemed happy. It took around 3 hours to do a 50%, and about another 40%. I had planned to get a Python, but I'm doing the most gradual method I can since my tank is rather smallish, and that's adding the new water in by a large glass. It takes a little longer, but it's more gradual. I know the tank water seems to be 7.0, but the new water comes in around 7.2. They seemed fine with the change, in fact the Otos seem to like to be there when the new water pours out of the filter.

That being said, I had a heart attack when one neon got too close to the vac and got itself sucked up into it!!! I got him out, and then later I couldn't tell which one it was, so I guess it was ok. Everything looked fine last night, with the exception of the whitish areas and one at least that still has a fuzzy mouth. The Otos found the cucumer, thank goodness, so I have to assume starvation will be avoided for a while. I don't understand it, they used to love Hikari Wafers (unfortunately, I couldn't get them to switch to Wardleys), but now they don't seem to touch either.

This morning when I did Rounds or Attendance as I call it, I couldn't add up to 6. Even once they woke up, and I really looked hard. I don't know how I eventually saw it, but I'm sure it was dead for some time - the stupid thing had decided to fit itself into the tiny area between the filter and the glass, and apparently couldn't get out. /sigh

I've seen two fish die of natural causes so far in this tank, they both ended up on the opposite side of the filter's flow, on the gravel. I know which way the bubbles go, and anything else in the water... I don't think she died of something and then floated against the current to get to behind the filter, but I suppose anything's possible. Most of her body was white by then, with some color by her tail, so it wasn't easy to tell if it was one of the diseases. I'm also not inclined to think it was her that got sucked up last night since I thought that was a male (I only had 2 females). I could be wrong though. I don't know why she wanted to be there though, or what to do to keep the others from trying it. And then there were Seven. :(

Unfortunately Dangerdoll, my problems didn't work themselves out with salt and temp... the salt cured the ick, the higher temp made them sicker, but while the salt and heat and 2x or 3x week water changes was going on, I got my latest infestation. It seems great on paper, but I have to admit, with 2.25 tsp/gallon for 2.5 weeks, and developing the other things I did, and losing the fish I did, I'm not a believer in it. That being said, I can't say I'm a believer in medications either, since I still have an unknown disease, and the salt and meds treatment both killed at least one fish. They could be somewhat weak in state, although I would have expected more neons to die by natural causes, and aside from this morning's accident, they have bounced back well.

At any rate, they have some time, with clean water and maybe garlic added to their food, to prove they'd rather go without meds. I really hope they can pull it off so I don't have to stress about meds anymore. Unless you guys think this morning's death was a result of... something... I don't know what? Neither of the diseases are at the moment preventing eating, pooping, swimming and breathing. What else, allergic to clean water? o_O

Thanks for the responses. Sometimes I wish there was a cranky old fish doctor like House who knew exactly what the malady was. *jk* And of course, at the end of an hour, everybody was happy again.
 
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