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Goldfish Telescope Eye Genetics

Discussion in 'General Cold & Temperate Water' started by Dragon_Hacker, Jan 30, 2010.

  1. Dragon_Hacker

    Dragon_Hacker AC Members

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    Hi, I have just bred my first fry this summer in my parents pond, yes I'm only 17, and I have one red calico fan tail with beautiful tails, a white red cap oranda with a amazing wen, and a blue calico telescope eye. My problem is that these were all bought at a nearby pet store, although I looked for months to find them, and my telescopes eyes are slightly uneven in size and they are dome shape, not globe shape, but I had to settle for that since I didn't know when the next time I'd find a fish so close to what I am looking for. I am trying to breed a goldfish with long fins, a red cap wen, a blue calico body, and globe eyes. Something like this only with globe eyes:

    [​IMG]

    My question: I know that telescope eyes are genetic obviously, but will there be any offspring that would have even telescope eyes, after the second generation since the telescope eyes are recessive, that would have even eyes. AND, would any offspring have globe eyes, instead of dome eyes, or do dome eyes have stable genetics.

    Any help from telescope breeders, or people who know about goldfish genetics would be greatly appreciated, thank you.
     
    #1 Dragon_Hacker, Jan 30, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2010
  2. Somervell

    Somervell AC Members

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    I could be wrong, but I think that your chances will be much higher of getting either-or, but not both. Otherwise, we would see more telescopes with wens. Goldfish genetics are kind of odd. It seems that you can put together some really beautiful fish and have some really ugly recessive traits appear.

    I'm sure that Lupin, Flaringshutter or Kashta would probably know more specifics than I.
     
  3. Dragon_Hacker

    Dragon_Hacker AC Members

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    Yes, I don't expect that I will get telescopes with wens in my first cross, since the wen is incomplete dominate I believe, and the eyes are recessive, but I'm worried that all my telescopes will have uneven or dome shaped eyes. I'm wonderring if the dome shapped eyes will naturally mutate or reverse into globe shaped after a few generations of careful culling, or is the only way to hope to find another blue calico telescope for sale when I'm at a store...
     
  4. Dragon_Hacker

    Dragon_Hacker AC Members

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    Lupin... Flaringshutter... Kashta...? Are any of you there?
     
  5. Lupin

    Lupin Registered Member

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    Doh! I tried to post last night but my other laptop is too slow. The pc got fried from virus.:rolleyes:

    You have to understand though genetics in goldfish is so understudied and with almost a hundred variants already available (and some completely wiped out as a result of lack of studies to retain their standard appearance) especially with telescopes, genetics is bound to be way too complex. I've bred only orandas but do plan to try telescopes later on and I had done a lot of reading on Joseph Smartt's Goldfish Genetics book.

    Anyway, I wanted you to note there are four eye forms of telescopes to begin with.

    a. spherical
    b. ovoid
    c. segmented spherical
    d. truncated cone

    According to Joseph Smartt, author of the Goldfish Genetics handbook, the globe eyes often sport the truncated cones whereas the moors, especially broadtails, sport a more spherical eye form. If yours are "dome-shaped", I think you're referring to spherical.

    I've witnessed someone who owned a oranda x telescope cross but she never asked a previous source if they had breeding information of this. I wish I had asked her to obtain this information before but she just disappeared from a goldfish forum I regularly frequent.

    I have a friend whose fry might have been a possible mix of telescope and this is his first batch but I suspect only his orandas spawned even though he noted he combined them with two telescopes.

    I really have no specific answer to your question of the possible ratio of resulting fry between orandas and telescopes. You'll find it difficult to obtain a very specific breed like that especially one with red wen and not just red patches around the wen.

    I dunno if David (Ichthius) may have answers on this one. He bred goldfish a few times but I never have known him to breed telescopes. I could be wrong though on this account.
     
  6. Dragon_Hacker

    Dragon_Hacker AC Members

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    Wow, thank you Lupin, your answers are always so precise, and I'm sorry about your computer.

    My question really wasn't about the oranda/telescope cross, but more of whether telescope eyes that are "domes" (with the extra pyramid-like cone at the base) can naturally lose that base and turn into more "globed" (full large eyes that look like they are outside of the skull, like a standared black moor) after a generation or two.

    Also whether if even eyes will spawn a few uneven eyes along with even eyes, and uneven eyes will spawn a few even eyes along with the uneven ones.

    I'm sorry if my question was a bit vague, along with the overshadowing overview... Thank you so much for replying!
     
  7. Lupin

    Lupin Registered Member

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    Ahhh..So these domes to you are truncated cones! The globe standard to you is segmented spherical or simply spherical. No, I don't think these will really change. I haven't noticed my telescopes changing their eye shape and my Siamese dolls have a more ovoid shape while the singletail black moor has spherical shape. No changes so far with the way they shape.

    The evenness appears to be random to me depending on the parents used. I wish I could give you a more specific answer to the ratio if I had bred telescopes already.:(
     
  8. Ichthius

    Ichthius AC Members

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    My take on this would be try to reproduce a line before you try to create a new one. When we see tank of fish with x y and z we need to remember that they could have been picked out of millions of fish. Many fish do not breed true but rather in a population so one large population can produce many different phenotypes.

    It seems like you want a frog eyed oranda. Look at dandy oranda's they have them from time to time but you still won't get what you're looking for when you incross but you'll be a heck of a lot closer than crossing two unrelated lines.

    Just remember most fish use a punnett square for their genetics... Goldfish are a rubiks cube. Nothing is straight forward in goldfish genetics unless it's something you don't want like demelanization, If you loose black you'll loose all your black.
     
  9. Lupin

    Lupin Registered Member

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    Thanks for popping in here, David.:thumbsup: I knew you could give a more precise answer than I do.
     
  10. Dragon_Hacker

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    Thank you for all of your answers! I guess my best bet would be to get a "frog eyed oranda" or a "dandy oranda" and breed that to my best fry? I have never heard of these... I'm taking it that these are just orandas with telescope eyes. I guess I'll try to keep my eye out for these, although I doupt I will find them, and in the mean time I'll take the best wenned telescope fry that I can get and eventually breed that to a black moor after a few generations.

    Now I'm just wondering, if I would cross a black moor with a calico telescope (I think that calico is recessive) would the black velevet color (I believe that it's recessive too) turn a lot of the fry pure orange, I think the black velvet color is a precursor to orange...? (Boy this will be a big mess) I hate the orange color in goldfish so I am trying to stay away from that...

    Once again, thank you for your time and answers!
     

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