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Suspicious nodules INSIDE of oranda headgrowth

Discussion in 'General Cold & Temperate Water' started by Inka4040, Sep 2, 2011.

  1. Inka4040

    Inka4040 O_o

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    I get that this should be in coldwater illness, but since that forum gets a fat load no attention, I'd really appreciate it if the mods could leave it out in the general section for a while before banishing it there to die.

    I recently saw that there appears to be some growths showing inside of my kirn oranda's wen. To be honest, I didn't notice these things until yesterday, so I'm not sure how long they've been there or how much they've grown, but they seem to be distinctly different from the regular white wen pimples that can show up in hooded goldfish. As far as params go, ammo and trite readings at 0, and trates rarely have a chance to get up to 5ppm, with my daily 50 to 75% water changes. Haven't checked kh or gh readings from the tank, but my water is generally very soft and without buffering capacity right out of the tap. Not sure if this has any bearing on the issue, but only 1 fish is showing these sort of growths, and all are still eating well, swimming actively, and pooping normally. Hopefully this is enough background info.

    On to the nodules. At this point, I can see three. They are all along the lower jaw line/gillplate area of the fish on one side, and appear to be a creamy yellow color with small red veins emanating from them. Like I said, they are distinctly different from the regular wen pimples, and are clearly embedded within the wen itself. All attempts at documenting the issue with photos have failed, and even in person, you have to somewhat strain your eyes to see it. A cursory google search hasn't turned up anything that quite matches the description, so I turn to your collective experience in hopes of getting an answer before this thing gets substantially worse. Thanks in advance for your time and input.
     
  2. Ichthius

    Ichthius AC Members

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    If you can get some pictures they would be very helpful. It sounds like a bacterial infection that could be it's own issue or more likely is secondary infection to a ciliate or other bug.

    I've spent lots of money on great fish from great suppliers just to have them come down with costia, trichodina or... It's their job to provide healthy fish but when that fails it's your job to make your fish healthy.

    I use potassium permanganate. search it on my blog for details and feel free to ask specific questions. I would get them in 3 ppt salt immediately and or use your favorite parasite treatment. The infection may go away on it's own once the primary cause is cleared up but it may take a medicated feed or baytril injections.

    I once had a group of chinese lionheads that got this type of infection and it was difficult to clear up. It finally cleared up when the last fish died. It is fairly slow moving so you have time to do your research and get the appropriate treatment.

    do you have a microscope? Scraping would be good to get an idea of flukes, or ciliates.
     
  3. SubRosa

    SubRosa AC Members

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    Lymphocystis?
     
  4. Ichthius

    Ichthius AC Members

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    That tends to be on the fins.
     
  5. platytudes

    platytudes AC Members

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    All I want to say is...I hope you find some answers soon, Ricky! (And that Kashta doesn't move your thread ;))

    I must say, a microscope is so helpful for situations like this. This is exactly the kind of thing I used to write to Wet Web Media about in years past, and Bob Fenner himself (the founder of the site, among other job titles) would finish his answer with exactly the same last words as Ichthius had. He was right...one is not that expensive, can be gotten for cheap secondhand, and is tremendously useful along with a copy of Ed Noga's tome, but I'll be honest. I am never getting either of those things, and will probably continue blindly grasping for answers using my inadequate visual diagnostic process, using medications in a somewhat random and haphazard fashion to treat vague symptoms, for the rest of my years in this hobby...
     
  6. SubRosa

    SubRosa AC Members

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    Not always:

    lymphocystis-mouth.jpg
     
  7. Inka4040

    Inka4040 O_o

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    Well, if anything, I am thoroughly worried now, at least. I do have a microscope, but it's a made in China POS. It's currently propping up my cable box, but I guess now is as good a time as any to dust it off. Have a can of PP around for disinfecting equipment, but I'll definitely go over to your blog and look through the dipping procedure. The fish are split up in two tanks at the moment, but came all packed in 1 very large bag. Presumably I'll have to put all of them through the same treatment, then huh? I was told that these fish were pre treated for flukes, but I guess that doesn't really address the rest of the issues that could be going on right now. Man, I love goldfish but all of the sudden they seem like such a hassle. Now I've gotta worry if I've inadvertently cross contaminated any of my other setups, as well as trying to figure out what's wrong with this poor fish. I've read about the injection procedure with fish, but have NO idea where to even start going about getting baytril, or needles gauged small enough for use with fish. Le sigh... Oh well, thanks for all of the quick responses and ideas. Seems I've got a lot of reading up to do.
     
  8. Kashta

    Kashta Always Niko's fault.....

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    I haven't seen that before, Ricky. What concerns me most about your description is the reference to red veins emanating from them. That makes it sound like small tumors which may decide to grow.




    Okay people, hurry up and solve this for Inka. THEN I can move the thread all over the site. Give it a real good tour! ;)
     
  9. mel_20_20

    mel_20_20 AC Members

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    I was thinking that sounds like it could possibly be tumors, but pics sure would help. I thought of lymphocystis; I've had some experience with that, but I've never seen what looked like blood vessels in those lesions.
     
  10. Inka4040

    Inka4040 O_o

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    I've been reading up on lymphocystis, and since it responds to salt as well, I'm going with Ichthius's suggestion right off the bat. Ramping up to a full 3ppt concentration over the next couple days. Here's hoping my shoddy math skills don't kill these guys before I can figure out what's wrong. If I disnifect the tanks with PP and dip the fish as well, will the water need to be salted upon their return to the newly sterilized tanks? Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I'm a total idiot when it comes to treating sick fish.

    Also a bit more info about the nodules. At this point, they are about the size of a small pinhead, and it looks like they might eventually come up to the surface. Also, after further examination, I can't be sure if the red veins are associated directly with the lesions, or are just visible because the wen is exceptionally clear and colorless. It seems there might be some pinkness in the same area on the other side of the fish, where there are no lesions.

    David, I didn't find an entry about preparing a PP dip for fish on your blog, but did see the entry about using it to sterilize a system. What do you think of the treatment method outlined in this PDF?
    http://t i n y u r l.com/ppdip
    please remove the spaces

    Also, I've been using this site as a resource as well. Do you think the info there seems current? The site is kind of old and janky looking.

    http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/disease.htm


     
    #10 Inka4040, Sep 3, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2011

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