Why pure breeds are not ideal

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reptileguy2727

Not enough tanks, space, or time
Jan 15, 2006
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Many look at pure bred animals as being better. They are pure, which sounds good. We have an idea that thy are better for some reason. In a way we are right. With a pure bred labrador retriever (for example) of high quality you know what you are getting. It will have a thick coat, otter tail, friendly personality, desire to please, high intelligence, etc. With pure bred ranchu goldfish you should not get any trace of a dorsal fin. A pure bred Abyssinian guinea pig will have the wavy, cowlick hair expected of that breed. A pure bred animal will have the traits we expect from that breed. But there are many issues that come along with this.

In order to have a pure bred line, you must limit the gene pool. This is what will cause the problems. Anyone who has taken genetics (and understood it) should have a red flag pop up immediately at this point. This smaller gene pool is less adaptable than a larger one. There are fewer variations in the genes and this prevents the animal (or plant) from adapting to any changes. These include environmental factors like diet, temperature, as well as many chemical factors.

In the case of dogs we have many breeds. To maintain them as pure we must not mix in other breeds. In the 'best' or 'highest quality' lines there are the features we desire in them and a lack of genetic problems (such as many diseases). However, this is only in the dogs in the immediate past of the line. This does not prevent problems from arising in this or many generations down the line. This is why so many breeds have a tendency toward one or many genetic defects such as hip dysplasia, heart and brain problems, blindness, deafness, and in some breeds all of the above. Some breeds are even more likely to have a problem than to be healthy. Yet we keep breeding and buying these animals. The shar-pei breed in the U.S. is derived from four individuals imported many years ago. That is an extremely small gene pool to create and maintain a population with. It is no wonder it is hard to find an individual that does not have skin or eye problems. Most breeds have a tendency for certain defects. Whether it is blindness in the Briard (recently used as a subject in an experiment that returned vision using a virus to implant the DNA to make Vitamin A, the lack of which was what was causing the blindness), deafness in the Dalmation, hip dysplasia in the Labrador Retriever and German Shepherd, heart defects in the Boxer, etc., these are all the result of a small gene pool.

The way this actually happens is a number of ways. One is by removing individuals from the parent population (all dogs, dogs of that breed, etc.), you cut the population size down considerably. This is creating a founder effect. The founder effect in nature is when a small population of a species breaks off reproductively and no longer breeds with that parent population. The genes in this smaller population are in different proportions than they were in the parent population. What may have only been 0.5% in the parent population can be 20% in this population, for example. This amplifies the frequency it will show up as a trait. So what would be a rare trait to show up in the parent population can become very common, even likely, in that reduced gene pool.

This is not reserved to dogs. This is seen time and time again in all types of animals that are pure bred. Mouth and hoof problems in horses are one example. Many times it is not a genetic disease that is the issue, but a tendency for other problems. Most commonly this is seen as less hardy individuals. In many types of fish the 'fancier' breeds, generally those most distant from the wild type, are much more sensitive than the wild type or those closer to the wild type. This can be seen in bettas, guppies, goldfish, discus, koi, angelfish, and others. The fancier and more distant genetically from the wild type, the less hardy the individual will be. In some cases there is a bell curve ranging from wild type to the most domesticated and altered breeds. In these cases the wild type is sensitive, as you progress to more domesticated and altered breeds they become hardier, but as you get closer to the most domesticated and most distant from the wild type they become more sensitive. So the slightly domesticated breeds are the ones that are the most hardy. This is the case with discus. The wild caught individuals are more sensitive than most domesticated breeds, but the very high end breeds that are bred very selectively are also very senitive.

The usual response to this is something to the effect of 'they are not actually that sensitive as long as...' followed by certain specifications on their care and/or diet. This is by definition more sensitive. If some breeds do not require these special aspects of care but this one does, it is more sensitive than those other breeds. If a breeder of discus (or goldfish, bettas, guppies, what ever fish is in question) takes pristine care of the animal it is altering that line. If a fish is given a 75% water change twice per day, waste is vacuumed three times a day (after every feeding), etc., the fish raised in these conditions will become acclimated to this. This also diminishes any differences in hardiness because all the offspring are raised in such superb conditions. So an individual that may not have done well at all can end up doing almost as good as the hardiest of its siblings.

Another aspect is the process of choosing which offspring or individuals to be bred. When given the choice of 30 fish, some will grow faster and be more resistant to any problems (such as pathogens) than other individuals, or may process certain nutrients better and therefore grow faster and may show more colors. However, these will not necessarily be the ones that have the accepted characteristics of the breed. But in order for the line to be of high quality, those with 'proper' characteristics of the breed will be the ones chosen to be bred, not necessarily the ones that are the hardiest. This leads to problems down the line. Unless the accepted traits of that breed always show up in conjunction with the hardiest individuals you can not breed for both hardiness and 'high qaulity'. The response to this can be 'they are bred for both quality and health'. If this is happening then they are choosing the healthiest individuals that are of the highest quality, which requires an even more limited gene pool. Rather than breed the healthiest individuals, they may take the top group and of those choose the ones that best fit the breed standards. This limits the gene pool even more and even faster than other methods. So although this generation may be relatively healthy (at least in the pristine tansk of the breeder) that does not mean that the negative results of this selection will not show up down the line, even within a couple generations.

Another thing to keep in mind is that these traits are not inherently 'high quality'. We choose what traits are to be considered high and low quality. Or, more likely, some one or some people a long time ago decided what a certain breed of dog or discus should look like. These decisions are not necessarily based on anything that has to do with the health of the animal, but what looks good to us (really them). But we read in our books and were told by the breeders that a discus should have a certain conformation, or that the coat of this breed of dog should be thick and short. These do not necessarily show health at all, and may have been chosen despite the health of the animal, but are still important criteria in our minds before we hand over our dollars.

There are healthy pure lines out there. But many if not most can end up doing more harm than good. And many of the healthy pure bred lines are simply good so far.

There is a reason why so many have seen time and time again that mixed breed dogs are healthier and much less likely to have health problems than pure breds. Not just genetic health problems, but they are even more resistant to acquired health problems. In general they are hardier and more adaptable. A small gene pool is specialization because it requires certain conditions to thrive. It lacks the ability to adapt to changes. So if the next keeper of individuals in this line of discus does not do daily water changes, or this breed of mouse does not receive twice as much protein as most breeds need, they will suffer for it. It has even been seen in some cases where breeders recognise the need for outbreeding and intentionally introduce new individuals in to a breeding line to ensure genetic diversity within that line. In dogs, some of the hardiest pure breeds are those that were developed recently and used an assortment of breeds to develop the breed. In these cases an assortment of breeds were used (which increased the gene pool from the start), but since the breed itself is relatively young it is still varied and still maintaining a large gene pool.

This is even true in humans. It has been shown time and time again in many cases of humans where the founder effect literally brought out otherwise extremely rare traits in very small populations. Albinism, third genders, hemophilia, and many others have been shown to appear much more frequently in smaller populations or when outbreeding is reduced leading to inbreeding (which has been the case in Royal families in Europe in the past). These amplify the frequency of these problems.
 
"The usual response to this is something to the effect of 'they are not actually that sensitive as long as...' followed by certain specifications on their care and/or diet. This is by definition more sensitive. If some breeds do not require these special aspects of care but this one does, it is more sensitive than those other breeds. If a breeder of discus (or goldfish, bettas, guppies, what ever fish is in question) takes pristine care of the animal it is altering that line. If a fish is given a 75% water change twice per day, waste is vacuumed three times a day (after every feeding), etc., the fish raised in these conditions will become acclimated to this. This also diminishes any differences in hardiness because all the offspring are raised in such superb conditions. So an individual that may not have done well at all can end up doing almost as good as the hardiest of its siblings."

in the wild some of these same fish may actually be getting 100% water changes over the course of the day..
these are primarily in the Orinco Valley (amazon river basin).

in essence the water they originate from is much cleaner than the water provided in captivity.
one reason attributed to the unsuccessful breeding attempts of some sepcie of Discus .and the inability to duplicate this environement.
 
We cannot come close to their natural ecosystems, which has many more factors than just an equivalent water change schedule. So basing our care on nature is not always the best way of looking at it.
 
I definitely follow some of the genetic post and agree that more harm than good can come from some breedings for perfection in color for example, but not just in discus. How tightly inbred do we imagine most cories and guppies and platys, etc. etc, in every aquarium shop? Pretty tightly. How many people on the forum alone have stuggled to get one cory to live out of a purchase of a few, or one neon to live out of a dozen......same thing is happening to all kinds of fish. The discus I have at the moment were bred for pattern and color I'm sure. Yet their spawns produce viable fry. And i do have experience with proper aquarium maintenance, fishkeeping techniques, etc. which enables me to be successful. But some success has been because I have managed to obtain healthy fish to start out with. Two of the main reasons discus require more water changes is 1) it is often recommended to feed juvie discus foods such as raw beefheart mixes where excess food will quickly foul the water...imagine, raw beefheart particles sitting for a couple of hours in 86F water....yuk! And 2) They are a bit more sensitive to nigher nitrate levels than a lot of other fish. They are huge ammonia producers which in turn ends up resulting in higher nitrate levels in an established tank. To get rid of high nitrate levels, we do a water change. That is the main reason I am doing 2 very large water changes for my adults each week. The tank is planted but there's still too much nitrate. My tap comes out at around 7-10 ppm nitrates right off the bat and my adults can push my nitrate levels up to 30 ppm within a few days. If I wait a week it will be 40 ppm and they will be visibly bothered by the rising nitrate level by showing some rubbing.
 
There are other foods that are perfectly good for discus, even when very young, besides beefheart. I think that is one other issue. People equate fast growth to thriving, but super high protein foods encourage growth that is faster than they necessarily should be growing at. This is the same as powerfeeding snakes. You feed them more often and bigger food items that promote fast growth but result in health problems, bad proportions, etc.

It is not just discus and that is covered in the article. Discus were used as the main and repeated example because it seems to come up more with discus than with other species, but it in no way applies only to discus. This mainly affects species that have domesticated breeds created and maintained with artificial selection. However, many of the fish are produced in numbers much higher than the numbers discus are produced in. This requires more breeders, more parent fish, etc. This will help keep the genetics varied. But yes, most likely the same issues are also effecting common, 'unselected' species.

What nitrate concentration maximum do you try to maintain with your discus?
Anyone know of the natural nitrate concentration range of their native waters?
 
There are other foods that are perfectly good for discus, even when very young, besides beefheart. I think that is one other issue. People equate fast growth to thriving, but super high protein foods encourage growth that is faster than they necessarily should be growing at. This is the same as powerfeeding snakes. You feed them more often and bigger food items that promote fast growth but result in health problems, bad proportions, etc.

:iagree: and never feed my fish beefheart! New Life Spectrum, Ocean Nutrition and Frozen Hikari foods and mine are doing spendidly.

What nitrate concentration maximum do you try to maintain with your discus?

I don't let them get over 40. I know 40 is not going to kill them, but it is not going to benefit them either. I try to stick to a schedule of changing water on tuesday nights and saturday mornings anywhere from 50% to 75%. And yes, I'm sure i'm overstocked....but happily overstocked.
 
We cannot come close to their natural ecosystems, which has many more factors than just an equivalent water change schedule. So basing our care on nature is not always the best way of looking at it.
exactly,
but even then you will have alimited gene pool for captive breeding..unless you advocate wild capture. we cannot come close to a wide gene pool either.
but consider the gene pool for some limited pleco's..some are now thought to be extinct in the wild(tho time will tell)
now most are captive bred. 'pure bred'

also consider the geopgraphical limitations of some wild species.

by not replicating wild water parameters are we not then causing issues related to health? stunting. runts etc. and propagating these characteristics?

it is not a simple topic and how do you fault those that try to best replicate the natural environement? is it really so wrong to try and attempt this to at least give the 'best' chances?
 
I don't stress nitrates as a limiting factor.
total dissolved solids are more of an issue. many use nitrates as a baramometer for water changes.
we know that in a planted tank nitrates may actually be low.but other dissolved solids(pollutants) may be high.
 
In general nitrates are an indicator of overall water quality. And most with planted tanks still do adequate water changes. Nothing replaces water changes.

Mine also stay at no more than 40ppm. I was doing weekly 80% water changes but just switched to a semiweekly 50% schedule.

All my fish are on nothing but NLS.

I do not think there should be wild captures unless the fish are going to breeders, or those most likely to successfully breed in cases where captive breeding is not yet achieved or is still extremely difficult. Domestication should yield hardy individuals. This requires us to select for the individuals most tolerant of captive conditions. Trying to mimic nature and trying to select individuals that best meet those attempted wild conditions does not work as well as selecting for those best adapted to captive conditions. This is why people in areas with hard water are best to buy discus already acclimated or adapted to those conditions, not those out of tanks that are 5.5 while their tanks maintain hard water at 7.6.

I do not hold it against someone if they try to mimic nature, it is a good place to start. But it is not the be all end all and trying to mimic the wild can frequently lead to problems.
 
There in lies part of the problem with captively raised stock..eventually the gene pool gets smaller and smaller until they species captive bred are no longer hardy.
case in point-neon tetras.

aka point of diminishing returns.
 
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