lighting theory - very long post!

I can't seem to let go of this Kelvin/PAR thing... If we knew what phosphors a fluorescent used, and what peak frequencies they emitted, could we at least estimate PAR? In theory?


Yes, but in practice putting together than information into a useful "rule" would be an extremely difficult task, because in order to use it, you would have to know those specifics of every bulb you considered. It would almost have to be a spec that manufacturers provided.

Rather than urge them to provide that, I rather ask them to provide PAR values for say, 12" away from the bulb. This would be a useful number for comparing bulbs.
 
Yes, but in practice putting together than information into a useful "rule" would be an extremely difficult task, because in order to use it, you would have to know those specifics of every bulb you considered. It would almost have to be a spec that manufacturers provided.

Rather than urge them to provide that, I rather ask them to provide PAR values for say, 12" away from the bulb. This would be a useful number for comparing bulbs.

Yea, x2, the other thing, is that new bulbs are made every year and flood the market or new bulb technologies, such LED's, T5's reflector.
Most of the research on light uses PAR, there are trade offs for each method etc, cost, effectiveness, etc.......but the PAR meter is reasonable cost wise for a club to loan out.

No meter is really worth it to have for a single person.
Measure, do your test, then loan or rent it out, you will not likely use it much thereafter.

then you can compare folks's light for their plants at that time and in space. After all, the light changes as you get closer, and as we saw with the ADA lighting, it was much lower PAR than anyone had suspected.
So that type of info in much useful and predictive than watts/m^2 etc.
You would have never caught that using such rules and it does explain a lot when you look at dosing and CO2 demand etc. With less light, you can get away with a lot less. But if the light is not comparable, you add 2-3x as much light and wonder why it does not work/has lots of issues:silly:

All the folks that cried, whined, hooted and hollered over the last what? 20 some odd years about "light rules" and how to fix things never bothered to test it. Playing with silly conversion factors instead. Many of them harassed me about not testing NO3 via EI etc and suggesting people add non limiting nutrients ironically.

I know when and what to test for however.
This is classic case.

Reef folks got it, they spend lots of $ and time testing and measuring and doubting themselves. Not much with the plant folks' crowd.

When testing using a water proof probe like the Apogee, you can measure how light intensity changes through a week at the very tip of a stem.
This is interesting because you soon realize the plant is exposed to exponetially higher and higher light as it grows, then you trim it, and the prcoess starts again.

How does this light intensity change affect the system?
What does this do to CO2 demand?
NO3? PO4? demand?

Think it changes through time and space?

Now you have a tool that can get data and answer such things for light.
How does pruning affect light getting to the plants and how much should/do I do?

Now you can measure those things, measure all points in the aquarium, measure and compoare any bulb.

It would be nice to have a PUR meter that would give the units in terms of bioavailable light and what is used. They have such things but they measure light use indirectly for terrestrial plants.

They can measure bulbs etc with them and all, but they are not pactical or cost effective for us.

There are trade offs with every unit etc, but PAR weighs them all pretty well and is a good standard for aquarist and biologist both.




Regards,
Tom Barr
 
As a novice, I am waiting for the final result - found this site: Why water is blue http://www.dartmouth.edu/~etrnsfer/water.htm and http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Lighting.html
Ha! I don't think there will ever be a "final result." Too many variables and almost as many opinions as there are aquarium-keepers. Nothing will ever beat experience and testing (as plantbrain pointed out) and we'll never get it perfectly right... but that doesn't stop us from trying! :)
 
Great and thought provoking discussion. I decided to see if I could find PAR for my bulbs just out of curiosity and found this site -- it's not about aquatic plants and it's focuses on CFL bulbs, but I thought some of you might find this interesting.
https://growguide.opengrow.com/CFL_Lighting_101
 
Allow me to muddle the waters a little.

Lighting in aquaria is based upon research in the greenhouse and open field. Very little has been done in aquaria. The information has been extrapolated from the terrestrial sources and much of it may not apply because of the effect of water on light.

There are actually only two main wavelengths of light that are needed for plant growth - 430 & 662nm. This is because there are two different types of chlorophyll molecules. Different species of plants produce the chlorophyll molecules in different ratios.

The photosynthetic radiation needs for different species are not the same. Some are adapted towards using more in the 430nm while others use more 662nm. Just measuring PAR does not effectively correlate to total photosynthetic activity in all species.

If you have some spendy equipment, it is possible to measure the photosynthetic activity of the leaves. This is done by testing for total nitrogen content per gram in the leaf tissue. It has been shown that there is a very strong correlation between nitrogen content and photosynthetic activity (given nitrogen is plentiful). This is the only way I know if to quantatively test the effectiveness of the lighting on the plants.

I just wanted to point this out because biology likes to make and break rules. The correct answer to how much and what type of lighting for a tank is always .. "It depends...."
 
I just found this interesting comparison of specific bulbs: http://www.aquabotanic.com/lightcompare.htm. If you scroll to about halfway down the page, you can read this person's conclusions. This is what caught my eye:

The most important conclusion in my opinion is that the efficiency of converting electrical energy into PAR light energy is not that different for the several bulbs and technologies included in the sample. The majority of bulbs in the sample deliver approximately (within a 20% range) the same amount of uE/s/Watt in the 400-700 nm range, about 1 uE/s/Watt. High intensity discharge lamps and high-end fluorescents tend to be more efficient, but not by a large factor.

On the other hand, the efficiency of converting electrical energy into visible light energy can be very different among the several types. In other words, the lumen/Watt efficiency can encompass a very wide range, about 200% in this sample. This effect can be quantified by the correlation coefficient between these two quantities, which is 0.56 in this sample. This tells us that no correlation exists between the lumen and PAR output, or, in other words, the lumen efficiency is a very poor criterion for selecting bulbs. We should strive instead for raw power (Watts), since PAR/Watt is on a first approximation the same for most bulbs. The reason for that lack of correlation is of course the broad band response of plants to light, as opposed to the narrow band response of the human eye. Some bulbs are somewhat better than others in converting Watts into photons though, so when efficiency is a major design factor, one should stick with the highest PAReff bulbs. Remember however that in real life, one should be concerned with the overall system effciency, and not just bulb efficiency. This includes the differences between, for instance, magnetic and electronic ballasts. This topic is outside the scope of this article though.

As many have said, there will never be a good "rule" because every situation is different, but as a starting point maybe we need to use watts after all. Round and round we go. :hypnotized:



 
Hmmmmm.... that's it?
Great read; disappointing in the end. Not that i expected any kind of real conclusion to be made, but i was greatly enjoying the different perspectives, theories, and analyses.

I've been involved in the stage lighting world in the past, and we used a lot of PAR cans (mostly PAR 64's). Is that reference to the same stats as the PAR in all these posts above? Just curious, as those could be really bright lights, depending on the gel filters used.
 
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