Excel used as an algaecide

So to keep this thread on track, am I correct that the OP is actually looking for advice on ridding BBA?

We all know that algae forms from an inbalance in the aquatic environment. Some are easier to rid than others with the aid of black outs and such. But..when dealing with the dreaded BBA, I believe the OP is looking for assistance to ridding it currently.
Nice to hear from you! Can you help the OP out? When one goes to a Doctor and he tells you, you have an unbalance of your heart beat! Now you asked the doctor, will what should I do? He tells you to go home and get a handle on it...now I'm scratching my head!

Hi Hank (its Paula)

I'd love for Tom to expound on what he means by "get a handle" on things. I also have BBA, and he doens't so he's doing something right and you and I are doing something wrong, but what? I agree its not as simple as "introduction" because I have tanks with it, and without it.


I know its not that you aren't willing to put in the time - regardless of what else life throws at you- I know you do spend some time on your tank every day testing and dosing. I am sure with some type of lead - some direction to take you'd take it.

Tom, can you be more specific? I agree its not simply introduction- but what could it be instead?
PB, Thank you for your support. I'm so frustrated here. I believe that Tom Barr is the only one here who knows how to rid BBA . Tom is right about reading opinions from 101 newbies. What a waste of time!
Pss! James called me an OP, is that bad?
 
So your answer to my BBA problem is to get a handle on the situation.
I'm 69 years old and I will try to fit it into my schedule, 4 grandkids, takes a lot of my time but I love It. Maybe one day I will be able to tell you why BBA doesn't survive in your planted tank.
Looks like I will have BBA in my tank for awhile.

I'm not messing with you, just addressing the hypothesis that inoculation is somehow the reason for the issue with algae. You can decide and will all on your own there.

Good consistent CO2/Excel dosing + watching and adjusting these based on the plant health, reduced algae new growth.

If you have a non CO2 planted tank, some background on what you are doing can help pinpoint what advice is given to correct the issue.

Reducing light intensity often helps make CO2 management easier.
Less light= less CO2 demand by plants = less nutrient demand.
So less light makes everything easier, but you cannot go too far and dip below and critical light level either.

MY CO2 system consists of two, 5 lb tanks. and a SU-Mo regulator, pH controller, Drop checker. The KH is 3 dKH and pH is 6.4. You can see how high my CO2 is.

Well, you are assuming this CO2 is all dandy and perfect, but BBA is a much better "test" telling me and anyone else that's resolved their BBA issues that uses gas, that something is not right.

Reducing the light is a good 1st step, this places less stress for cO2 on all the plants, dosing nutrients is another part of this, so they can fully use the CO2/light also. Nutrients (and light, once set) are pretty easy to rule out, they do not move around a lot(maybe a few ppm over 1-2 days slowly, light over months/years and not much even there) compared to CO2(minutes).

Good current is a 3rd part of this.
This mixes the CO2 very well, it also provides higher O2 via exchange with the surface, yes, you lose a little CO2 this way, not much IME. But what you gain is much better. It's easy to add a bit more CO2 anyhow to compensate.

By ensuring good mixing, the CO2 is very well mixed and even throughout the tank, you have higher O2, so the fish are less stressed and you can add more CO2, have more wiggle room in CO2 management.
All simple good things.

Lower light= more wiggle room.

Drop checkers and pH/KH charts.........well, they can be used as guides, but never put too much faith into them. Algae NEVER lies. Test and the assumptions very well can. We can make standard reference solutions for NO3, or even light, but not for CO2 (well, we can, but not hobbyists).

How do you know that the test method is correct?
You use a 2 point calibration for the pH probe/controller, but not for CO2 directly. We can do the same with stock solutions of NO3 using KNO3 and water to check the NO3 test kits.

How do we do this for CO2 in water?
We cannot easily.

So what to do?
Well, use the BBA as a good indication something is seriously wrong with CO2. Stunted plant tips on some species also is a sign or progressively small tip growth. General reduction in overall growth rates etc.

These are biological test, that's what we are concerned about, not pH/KH/DC's etc really.

I'd decrease the intensity of the light, raise the light up higher if possible, say 2-4", then try 6" etc. Give it 1-2 weeks and watch carefully.
If not possible and the hood is fixed in place, try usign metal window screen, much like shade cloth. Adding 2-3 pieces over top of eachother will reduce it even more, 1 typical piece will decrease light by about 5-10%, 2 10-20 % and so on.

What is you light set up and specifics?

You might consider increased current, not enough to break the surface, just below that, but adding some more movement will help. Next, SLOWLY add slightly more CO2 and watch for the next 1-2 weeks. Watch plants and new growth, look for signs of increased BBA growth. Do this porogressively and keep a very careful eye on fish health. Do not adjust the CO2 a lot then wander off, you may come back to gassed fish, this is the last thing you want. So do this conservatively.

Once the tank has no new growth, plants have started to grow without algae, in healthy good condition, that's the CO2 target you want, check the DC, pH/Kh and then write that down/make a note, that is a relative measure for the CO2. Not an absolute value. I think many folks assume test give them real true ppm's they can rely on, but that is not the case much to many's surprise.

Balancing the CO2/light produces far easier management and provides you the ability to get a handle on all this, not only with BBA, but ALL ALGAE and most plant issues/growth problems.

Once plant care is the the focus, then algae of most all sorts is no longer a problem. So focus more/most on the plants and making management overall, easier. I've detailed out how to go about this pretty much hitting most of the basics for dealing with CO2/BBA.

Adding Excel will help etc as well, but you should not have much issue if the CO2 is good and the plant growth overall will be much better and easier to care for.

Once you see this and realize it, it's a bit of a revelation.
Till then, most try everything that comes down the pipe and suffer.

SAE's are the best BBA herbivore also.

So excel, SAE's, current, progressively careful adjustments of CO2, reduced light, trimming off BBA as new healthy growth comes in, cleaning the CO2 diffusers often, water changes, good clean filters etc all work together to beat back the algae. Mostly good plant growth is the best defense. This should give you some direction and detail holistically.

Automation of pH control for CO2 is only as good as it's user and their assumptions, it does not make adding CO2 any easier or better.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
Tom! I bow to you and you know it will take me some time to digest all that information. Hmm! now I need somebody to translated in a manor that I can comprehend it.
 
PB, Thank you for your support. I'm so frustrated here. I believe that Tom Barr is the only one here who knows how to rid BBA . Tom is right about reading opinions from 101 newbies. What a waste of time!
Pss! James called me an OP, is that bad?

I think you may have mistook my comments. I surely wasn't offering any advice on ridding this blight as I don't know myself. To me, it didn't seem like your question was being answered instead everyone "advising on what to do to prevent it in the first place".

Just wanted to stay on topic so I might be able to learn myself how to rid it.

That's all...nothing else meant by. Thought I was tryin to help ya out...recon not.
 
So basically (I am trying to understand this for myself)

The healthy plant growth is basically outcompeting the algae for the nutrients the algae needs to survive and thrive?

If that's the case I can see what you meant by getting a handle on things...Everything is connected

and OP = Original Poster
 
I think you may have mistook my comments. I surely wasn't offering any advice on ridding this blight as I don't know myself. To me, it didn't seem like your question was being answered instead everyone "advising on what to do to prevent it in the first place".

Just wanted to stay on topic so I might be able to learn myself how to rid it.

That's all...nothing else meant by. Thought I was tryin to help ya out...recon not.
Sorry about the misunderstanding. I thought OP means an old person. I need all the friends I can get.
So basically (I am trying to understand this for myself)

The healthy plant growth is basically outcompeting the algae for the nutrients the algae needs to survive and thrive?

If that's the case I can see what you meant by getting a handle on things...Everything is connected

and OP = Original Poster
Thanks for the explanation. It's a lot more complicated then you think. Not easy to keep a free algae planted tank.
 
Tom Barr, My light set-up:
4ft,T5, 4 bulbs, 216 watts, Teklight, 2- 6500K and 2- 10000K. 2 bulbs on for 4 hrs and 4 bulbs on 5 hrs. Hung from ceiling. 11" from top of tank. I have an open top tank. Depth is 16" length 48" Did I forget anything?
 
Fitlration Hank? (water flow)


I understand that when it comes to plants
X amount of CO2+ X amount of light+ X amt N+K+etc= X amount of new plant mass
That the relationship, as far as quantities of each, is fixed- increasing one without the others will not help- one of them will be a limiting factor- and the excess of the other substances - be it light of ferts- can't be used. Like you want to bake cookies- you need to add the ingredients in the proper ratio- if you want your recipe to yield more cookies you have to add everthing in the proper ratio- you can't just add another pound of butter and think its still going to work.

Do you think excess nutrients (one or all) in the water column, that are in excess of what your plants can use due to some limiting factor (in this case most likely CO2) encourage algae growth? Would you recommend cutting back your dosing as well as cutting back the lights? or is it more important to avoid defficencies in advance?
 
So basically (I am trying to understand this for myself)

The healthy plant growth is basically outcompeting the algae for the nutrients the algae needs to survive and thrive?

If that's the case I can see what you meant by getting a handle on things...Everything is connected

and OP = Original Poster

Sort of, plants and algae are not competing really though(maybe for light, but that's it). I think we often make this mistake(most everyone has at some point, do not feel bad).

For competition: you need both of them going after a limited resource, say nutrients or CO2.

Plants are often limited by CO2 and or nutrients, algae never are in our aquarium. Algae have a demand of about 100x less than a typical plant.
It's like comparing elephants (our plants) to mice (algae). Both are herbivores, but they really do not compete for plant biomass. The demands for nutrients/food are far greater by a herd of elelphants. A few mice can still do lots of damage and grow fast, reproduce quick etc, but they can live on far less, even though both species eat grass mostly.

Algae tend to be mostly limited by light. But they do not grow rampantly all the time either.........and why might some species grow, but not others? In other words, why are there some many species of algae if they all compete on the same playing field? How about plants? Do you think some plants might be a better competitor than another plant species?

Many so called easy plants, algae busters etc, are very good at low light and CO2 uptake, they are strong competitors and "weeds" in any cases.
Here we certainly can have competitive interactions.

But folks do not think about this much, never understood why really.
I add non limiting nutrients/CO2 for the entire group of plants.
This way they are not competing with eachother.

They all can grow nice and well together.

Algae on the other hand are a bit like annuals, they produce spores.......these sit and wait for good conditions, just like spring wildflowers wait out the winter for warm wet spring.

This "germination signal" tells the spore/young algae cell to grow and make a run for it, and once that occurs, a bloom, there's little that can be done except stopping the germination signal. That stops new growth.

Avoiding the germinating signals is the key, not limiting a resource/competition. To test algae, you need to be able to induce a bloom, to germinate it. So providing good conditions for plant growth helps a great deal and prevents most of the germinating signals.

If you where an alga spore, what signs would you look for to grow in and be successful over a few month time frame? Would you want to grow when there's little nutrients and lots of plant biomass, blocking light etc?

Or early during spring run off, when there's lots of input from the land from NH4, CO2, low O2 and there's lots of light still? Or the middle of summer when there's lots of plant coverage, little water column nutrient supply etc?

Just think about it, even if you do not get it all today etc, sit down and give it some thought, see if it makes some sense. Read up etc.


Regards,
Tom Barr
 
Tom Barr, My light set-up:
4ft,T5, 4 bulbs, 216 watts, Teklight, 2- 6500K and 2- 10000K. 2 bulbs on for 4 hrs and 4 bulbs on 5 hrs. Hung from ceiling. 11" from top of tank. I have an open top tank. Depth is 16" length 48" Did I forget anything?

How big is the tank? I did not recall seeing that, maybe I missed it.

16 x 48, I doubt it's much more than 18" front to back, so you have 70 gal or less.

Here's a tank of similar size, but with 1/2 this amount of light:

resized70galADAwith1.5wgal.jpg


I doubt you need more than 2 bulbs running, there's only 2 on this tank above. Tek lights are very intense. 1.5 w/gal is good for most.

Do not bother with the blast of all 4 for a few hours in the middle.
Wait. After things are stable, plants growing well, good CO2/current, then you might play with the fire again, you can always reduce the light again or raise the light up.

I think it's still a CO2 issue, so tweak that slowly and carefully, add Excel, do good sized water changes, kill any that is exposed on non live material with a toothbrush and excel etc, dose good, good sized water changes for awhile and frequently(you cannot over do water changes, they only help the tank), Clean filters, clean any CO2 equipment etc.

But raise the lights or reduce the bulbs to 2 at any one time, maybe the inside for 4-5, then the outside set for the remainder 4-5 hours. The Tek often light the outside two bulbs in one setting, I'd just use that and not switch between the two pairs. That will give the best coverage/different angles form the bulbs vs the two in the middle.

This tank is 120 gal, and uses 4x 54w Tek light, at 12" above the tank and the tank is 24" deep, so about 1.7 w/gal.

redone120dec2009.jpg


You might like Giesemann powerchrome daylight bulbs also, maybe add one Aquaflora in there. Give a very nice aesthetic look. When you have distance and the brand of light, I can tell without using a PAR meter about where you are at.

Try these management methods and adjustments and give it a few weeks. Look for signs of new growth in plants, and BBA. Be patient and keep tweaking light/CO2, doing good dosing etc.

It does get easier once the plants' needs are met and they start to dominate/define the aquarium.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 
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