Mafia 66: Farmers versus the Railroad - the play

[Kashta]

It's late so I'll take a few posts all together.

Wow, some opening to day one.

After reading the thread before my post and reading what was posted afterwords, I have a couple of questions to ask.

Noods, why do you keep visiting the subject? This is only my fourth game but have learned from observing that defensiveness is a scum tell.

However, I have been wrong twice using defensiveness as a reason for voting to lynch so I will just watch and see what develops while I am at work.

Odin, would you care to give us a reason for your vote? When voting to lynch someone it is customary to give your reason for reaching this decision as this then gives the rest of us something to consider.

Maybe you have seen something we have missed.

FF WHERE ARE YOU????? :huh:

That is correct that getting defensive over something "trivial" (as Pappy phrased it) is a scum tell. But people get defensive either because they've something to hide (as in having an evil role and hoping nobody will notice)... or because they feel vulnerable or intimidated by the person or the situation.

In your case, Wizard, I believe those you've voted before got nervous because of the situation they were in during those games. Sometimes it takes time for new/new-ish players to gain the confidence they need to hold their own against some of the more tactical players in the game.

As an example, Lab Rat got defensive last time around. While she turned out to be innocent in her role, her demonstrated behavior drew suspicion and that was enough at the time to rattle her. Dawg also got defensive during a game you played... and that got him killed for the same reason. Dawg happens to be a very experienced player so to explain what it was that made him seem this way.... I haven't a clue. Sometimes that just happens.

In this game and in Noodles' case here on Day 1, I don't believe for a moment that she acted defensive because I voted her for making that goof. I do believe, however, that she's on the railroad owner's team. And it was THAT in connection with my unexpected vote that caused her to flinch the way she did.

Odin... still hasn't posted anything of substance. Placing a vote only to dash away without any explanation is not going to sit well with the town in any game.

Glad the game has finally started.

I dont know what to think of the Kash/Noods thing.

I would also like to hear Odins reason for voting Kash.

Are you planning to make another appearance in the thread, Annie? I'd like to know what you've concluded about the "Kash/Noods thing."

It's nice to see the game off to a quick start.

As far as the Noods/Kash thing goes I can understand Kash pointing it out. I remember the game when Kash did it. However I think Noods was excited because she hasn't played the last few games so I could also see her pulling the trigger too soon. I will keep an eye on her though.

The strangest thing about all of this is that after Kash calling out Noods and beating on her for it now she just drops the vote. Not because she has a better candidate but just because. To me that seems like more of a scum tell.

Dawg, you think Noods got trigger happy with her post just because the game started. I disagree. It's as simple as that. Given her personality, her exuberence, and her preference for being on an evil team instead of being a townie... IMO, it fits her as I've observed her play in past games that what really got her excited and distracted enough to make that mistake was... finding out she got to be evil again.

A lot of players are mildly disappointed when they get that PM saying they're "just a townie" again. That's why most UD's turn out to be innocents instead of mafia. That's also why most active/vocal players are either scum or townie PRs. By and large, it sucks to be innocent as far as most players are concerned.

 

[Kashta]

I wouldn't say I'm normally a late night poster during the week at least...but yesterday was a holiday after all...

Anyways, I'm not sure I can really say much about Coler since he apparently remembers the game better than I do...happen to know which # or at least what setup it was? I just remember that I didn't play in your first game or two so I figured it was one of those.

Going back to Coler, I think his questioning was fine since you were quick to assume that Noods got an evil role no matter when exactly she received her PM but at the same time he was quick to vote for you without getting an answer even.

On the topic of Noods reaction...I think it was justified, but I'm not going to write anything off of course. It's definitely something to keep in mind.



I agree with the last paragraph...that strategy always bugs me when it's explained that it was a pressure vote and then it's retracted. Whether or not the vote served any purpose at all is debatable, outside of creating some sort of discussion.

1. As I posted before, I also though Coler's question was fine. I expected I'd be questioned about my early vote, so that wasn't an issue for me at all. Him throwing a vote my way along with that question, however, made his position much stronger than it would have beeen otherwise....and I'm curious why.

We've not heard from Coler since then, but I'm sure he'll be along again soon to elaborate. lmao. It is unusual for Coler (I believe) to vote someone while asking them a question -- but not bother to even wait for their answer.

2. So Pappy states he not only attributes Noodles' blunder to... aww shucks, it's just Noods being Noods again. Pappy also feels her over-reaction to my vote was justified. We should all, therefore, just give Noodles a pass on whatever she does or says? I don't agree with that. She's no beginner and she not dim-witted. And she's just as crafty at this game as anyone else.

Why should we do that, Pappy? Noodles is well capable of taking a few votes or accusations in stride and lets them bounce right off. I know that's true, I've seen her do it many times. She's also good at giving as well as she gets. I see no good reason here why Noods should receive special consideration in this game any different than we'd give anyone else in a game like this.

3. Whether or not my vote served any purpose is not a debatable point for me. I'm not here soliciting everyone on whether they like it or not or whether or not they feel it had merit. The vote served my purpose for placing it....

I felt Noods jumped the gun because she found out she got to be evil. I wanted to vote her for that reason and see how Noods would react. Noodles' over-reaction reinforced the opinion I'd made and I think that's very telling. By placing that vote I also not only generated some Day 1 discussion, but I believe I may have flushed out some clues about the roles other players are in.

Whether anyone else agrees with me on this or not wasn't the issue here. I wanted some information early in the game. And I believe I got quite a lot to work with. So I'm happy about that. This is a real tricky format we're in and the town is up against some real slippery and subtle players.

It wasn't my intent to lead any charge from the start of the game to get Noodles lynched. That would be silly. No one jumped onto any train against Noodles... some people have taken either a bold stand defending Noodles, they're taking a low-key persistent position siding with her, or they're ignoring the whole thing as well as they can. For me, that's enough of a purpose all by itself because it's forced most people here to reveal something about their possible connection to someone I believe is on the scum team.. that they would not have done at all if I hadn't voted Noods when I did and for the reason I gave.

Then, having had my original suspicions confirmed by Noodles (and others) to my satisfaction, I withrew the vote expecting we'd go off onto other topics and look at other suspects.

 

[Kashta]

hit post too soon

I meant to also say I'll let Kash respond to FF since after last game I think need a small break from trying to interpret FF's posts...take it away Kash.

LMAO.. gee thanks, Pappy. lol.

IM BACK!!!!!
My mac was having internet problems and im grounded by my dad, untill friday, for bad grades (its only one D and one C). Anyway, im in math class with some spare time and after skimming have come up with this:




Immedietly jumps on Noods for pre-game posting (what does that have to do with the game roles?)



Saying that pre-game posting is not a scum tell, but still voteing for noods.



Why are u lying so much, did ur team tell u to do damage control? And what happened to it not being a scum tell?



I agree with the "Kash dropped the vote" bite.

I vote to lynch Kashta for posting so much my mac quit on me the first 3 times i tried to load this thread (the black screen-o-death lol). But really kashta, why so much so soon? Its getting obnoxious, and im supposed to be the BS poster. Stop taking my job lol.

Fishfriend... you were in a hurry to catch up reading a lot of posts in the thread when you had very little time to do it. As you stated, you had to skim through them quickly. It's for that reason that I believe you took a sarcastic remark I made.. literally. And that's why you were confused about my position.

If you go back a re-read all those posts again, I think this will make better sense to you. Just remember that the post I made where I said.. okay, Noods.. whatever. Read that one as me being sarcastic.

The fault there is mine for not being more clear about the "tone of voice" I was using while writing. Normally when I'm being sarcastic, I'll include some LOLs or laughing smileys with the passage.

I didn't use smileys/etc. in that post because I wasn't making fun of Noodles. I do believe she's scummy and I'd like to see her get lynched for that... but there's no need for ridicule. So for me to include LOLs or funny smiley's might have been taken as me just kidding around with her or that I was putting her down on a personal level.

Yes.. what she did was a scum tell. And that's the reason I voted her. When Noods replied, she asked me to explain why it's scummy... so I did. Then Noods came back, bringing it up again saying she doesn't think it's scummy. That's where I replied to her... yeah, okay, whatever. That was sarcasm.. or something a bit more condescending, perhaps.

I was not disagreeing with myself. You'll see what I mean now if you re-read those posts again.

 

[Kashta]

I've been thinking about the Noods/Kash interaction and have come up with 5 plausible theories.

1.) Noods is scum, got excited about being scum, and slipped up. Kash called her on it.

2.) Noods is scum, Kash is scum, and this was a distancing stunt since the early vote on day 1 doesn't tend to hold.

3.) Noods is innocent, Kash is scum, and Noods early posting seemed like an easy thing for scum to exploit. I don't really think this is the case since Kash is a much better player than that. Scum usually lets innocents make the case on day 1, not to mention it's way way too early in the day for scum to push a case against someone.

4.) They're both innocent. I'm not getting that feeling though...

5.) Kash knows Noods is scum because Kash is the immigrant worker. Remember, the immigrant worker(s) know the identity of a railroad scum. What a brilliant way to take advantage of a scummy slip up by Noods and then see who comes to her rescue. It sticks out big time that Coler jumped in right away to rescue Noods and try to set people onto Kash. Seems it worked. Noods seems way too squirmy to be innocent, especially for this early in the game. I think Kash did use that very early vote exactly as she intended. The retraction fits as well, it would be counterproductive to lynch Noods immediately.

Look at the following I've bolded from Kash's posts:







Right now I'm going with theory 5.



Dag, see my immigrant worker theory above. It's another way for Kash to know Noods was evil without being evil herself.

With that, I vote to lynch Coler as railroad scum.

Lab Rat, when you're on the innocent side and you don't have an innocent team to bounce ideas around with... please don't post every theory you can imagine in the game thread.

From this point on, if you think someone is a farmer... don't say so or you might help the evils turn that person to their side. If you think someone's a non-existent council member... don't say so or you might prevent the death of a railroad owner when the scum team places their next hit. If you think someone's an immigrant worker... don't say so or that person might get killed too as soon as the target railroad owner is already dead.

The best defense the town has against the railroad owners right now is the fact that they don't know which of us are in which role. Never speculate in the game thread about any townie PR by name. That only serves to tip off the mafia team to possible targets when they're working out their strategies. Always leave this up to the person posting their viewpoints to decide the level of risk/exposure they are prepared to take for themselves.

That said, the theory of yours that I've presented here is theory #1.

1.) Noods is scum, got excited about being scum, and slipped up. Kash called her on it.

As for everyone else... I'm prepared to debate the merits of my position and my voting on their own terms. If someone has a question, ask me and I'll answer it. If someone believes what I say is true, then agree with me. If someone thinks I'm evil and lying to everyone.. then vote to lynch me.

I accept the fact that I've stuck my neck out early on in this game. But whatever happens to me as a result will leave clues behind after I'm gone that will help the town piece together something important that they need to know to defeat the railroad owners.

 

[Coler]

I have to read posts since my last in particular kashtas so for now I retract my vote to lynch Kashta

Anyone who wants to tell me what the deadline in GMT is gets kudos.

 

[Coler]

That would be 9 EST so eh...2:00am GMT...marvellous

Kudos to me.

 

[Kashta]

Kash, I want to clarify a few things based on the game where you posted early, which I found (#51).

1) You brought attention to your post first and foremost by EDITING it. That is why Mad first jumped on you right away, not because you posted early.

2) Not everyone even received PMs that game, in fact, only the PRs did. JL didn't make it known until his "game on" post that innocents wouldn't get a PM. So there was little doubt that you were not just an innocent, especially when you started talking about other people getting PMs. That is how posting early got thrown into the mix.

3) In this game you posted as an explanation to Noods that you, as scum, posted in the game thread before going to your scum den because you were excited and not thinking clearly or something to that effect. While that may be true it is also important to note that when you tried to use the fact that you wouldn't do that as your defense Mad caught you lying because you posted in the game thread first in the previous game when you two were scum. So really, it was not the action itself that was scummy but that you lied about what you would have done and were caught.

I understand putting pressure on people to gauge a reaction, but I still hate when people use that as a reason to then back off and retract a vote. It's just another thing to use as a fall back when you know your case is weak and people start to question it, which is was starting to happen. By the way you insisted that posting early was a proven scumtell, even though the situations are clearly different, speaks to the fact that at some point you legitimately believed Noods was acting scummy, or tried to portray her as doing so. That's the impression that I get so take that as you will. You also said a couple times that your vote was "random." At the risk of getting into a lovely semantics argument, I think you can agree that your vote was not at all random and had some sort of reasoning behind it...however misguided.

If I misread or misinterpreted any of this, please let me know since sometimes reading things from an outside view doesn't exactly replicate what was going on during the game.

Pappy, you're persistence trying to defend Noodles or discredit me or make me appear scummy to others is going far beyond your usual pro-town, generally helpful and inquisitive game persona.

As you've already said, you don't even remember much about that part of that previous game. That's because even though you played that game, you didn't get very involved with that part of it. So to go off to skim over some of the arguments posted that were unique to that game based on on a totally different format and slanted according to by whichever role those players were in is being totally unhelpful to the points I've made in more general terms that apply equally to this game, this format, and the roles we are in here.

The bottom line was despite some of those game-specific details, the fact that I was in so much trouble the whole time (not just the first few pages you've skimmed over) was that I posted early before JL said "game on." Not remembering this fact or now pretending that you don't remember it yourself and dredging up a few isolated points posted there as their arguments for lynching me as an attempt to substantiate building a case against me to just trying to protect Noodles now does nothing but confuse this issue.

I'm beginning to think that is your purpose for doing so. For that matter, the signal-to-noise ratio in all your posts this game is much higher than usual. Deliberately confusing simple issues here and cluttering up this thread with unrelated side issues is not being pro-town at all.

Mad wasn't after me because of an edit or his claim that I was lying. Of course I was lying..... I was evil! lmao. Mad was innocent and he was trying to get me lynched because I was scum. He was also being blackmailed to convince others to kill me in that game, too, which also has no bearing on this one.

What does apply to this game is the reason I posted early.. same as Noods here.. in my opinion. And the fact that other innocents voted against me.. not over editing or whatever other arguments I managed to deflect as they posted.. but because (as stated with their votes) that they believed the reason I jumped the start that way was because I was evil that time.

Coler brought up that old game too in the same way... with some mumbo jumbo about content or timing. I've already addressed those points with him. The content was on par with what Noods posted here.. and the actual timing served better in my defense than in the attacks made against me. That's why I posted a dang chart listing the dates and times of those posts in relation to mine and the time stamp from the PM I received.

You really want to make some comparisons between this game and game 51? That's fine then too.

The game mod then was the same person modding this game. I actually did post in that thread (early) right after I received my role saying I was communicating mafia. Back then I was happy to be evil because I didn't know how to approach this game as an innocent yet.

From the time JL posted the player list in that game to the time I received my role and posted "woo hoo" in the thread was a total of 3 minutes. No speculation necessary there... John clearly sent out the mafia role assignments first.

And the elapsed time between John posting the player list in this game to the time Noodles posted "yippeee" was a total of 4 minutes. It doesn't take any stretch of the imagination or wild speculation to guess which PMs the game mod sent us or in which order.. it's the same person.

 

[Kashta]

Twice you brought forth that your vote was random so Noodles shouldn't have reacted the way she did...but now you say it wasn't. You're contradicting yourself Kash. Also, if you're so sure that Noods is mafia then why vote Coler who is only a strong possibility of being connected? You say that if we can ID a mafia goon early that we should get rid of them asap...well, then why the wait with Noods?



I vote to lynch Kashta

The contradictory remarks are just plain scummy. Not to mention that I believe she twisted around the situation from the past game in order to frame not one, but two people.

Pappy, whether a vote is random or not depends on what point in time you're looking at. Seriously, it's really hard for anyone to claim that a Day 1 vote made at the time of their very first post in a game is anything but random. Anyone who tried to state otherwise would get laughed out of the game. When I first saw this thread intending to post something at the start of the game, I didn't intend to vote for anyone at all with my initial post. Then I saw Noods posted early and I wondered about it. In the moment it took me to digest that.. think back to the reasons I'd made the same mistake... and decide yes it's totally within Noodles' character to get overly excited and distracted for the same reason I did... I then decided to explain that and vote her. I figured.. why not? It was a fairly random and arbitrary decision to make on the spot like that. So at the time my vote was placed... yes, I do consider it a random choice to make based on the connection I believe existed.

I expected Noodles would either just blow it off like usual (if innocent) or over-react to it (if scum). So in the time that's transpired since my vote was made, Noods' multiple responses and the reactions from others convinced me that I was on to something with that vote. That's what changed a random choice into something more serious.

 

[Kashta]

ok, I went back and looked at Colers posts, should have done this earlier.


this post doesn't seem to be defending moods... seems to me that Coler is really nmore interested in finding out why Kash is so sure on Noods, enough to say she MUST be scumtell.


this post doesn't seem to defend Noods either, it only explains that the game Kash is using as proof is not exactly how Kash laid it out.

Now, this doesn't seem to me that Coler is defending Noods, rather the opposite. He is merely finding a flaw in Kash's theory.

looks to me more like you used Coler as an opportunity to agree with Kash's belief and had not even considered that what Coler is saying is true.

And not only did Coler find this flaw in her thory, Pappy even elaborated more in going back to read the game, I am copying and pasting it here since my post has already started while I am looking for more things.


this gives validity to Coler's argument in my opinion.

DD, what Coler posted in regards to that game isn't correct. Evaluating his comments taken by themselves then using that as an argument now to support what he said is only reinforcing one side of the story. Looking at one side while ignoring the other is not being objective.

I posted replies to his posts which show that he was incorrect in his claim that the content of my post was the issue. I then went on to refute his claim that it was the timing of the post that the issue. The timing was my best defense instead of ammunition used against me.

I don't know whether you pulled Coler's posts by the author search feature and read them individually without reading the replies that followed or whether you, ahem, skimmed over what you didn't want to see or repeat for everyone in the thread... but in any case, you need to review a bit more thoroughly before reposting (rehashing) your viewpoints based only on certain parts of the posts made at that time.

 

[Coler]

Yeah but someone (pappy) went back and looked at the game thread and got it right - it was the fact that only pr's had received their pm's when you made your eh dumb post lol.

I was thinking out loud - I said I would have to read the game again - but pointing out that there was something of much more substance to your early post in that game that made it blatantly obvious that you were mafia, compared to Noodles post here which on its face (and, you know, she may or may not be scummy) had nothing to it except an early post.

You are or were arguing that an early post = a scum tell, based on your own experience of making a boo boo, and I was observing that a) the two situations are not comparable and b) your particular situation is not capable of generating a rule that a pre-game on post = a scum tell.

So you know, you're right that what I was on about in connection with your mistake in the earlier game was not the point - I think pappy has identified what the problem with that post was. But that's kind of missing the real point - your early post in that game was indeed highly scummy, but for more reason that just it was an early post.