par vs. watts

jakej... then it still begs the question... why do we suggest 1.5+ wpg, pc or t5ho, and "low light, easy plants"?

fastlight... good points.

cbster... thanks. i have seen the original thread started by hoppy on apc i believe... had it bookmarked for analyzing for a while there. good stuff to know... especially about the distances when compared through water vs. air. that was a head scratcher since you'll rarely hear that.

great input so far, thanks.
 
i would refine that description further, subrosa. i'd say more along the lines that watts are a quantity of power and par is a quantity of usable (quality) light. watts actually has no direct relation to light output except when comparing identical light sources or when wattages being compared or not even in the same ballpark. for instance 30 watts of any fluoro will never be 500 watts of mh no matter what you do to tweak it or how it's tested.
You're mostly correct, but all the light in the world won't benefit your plants unless some of it is the two bands of wavelength that plants can use. 30 watts of full spectrum fluorescent will out perform 500 watts of mh if the mh puts out light in say only the wavelengths that we perceive as green or yellow.
 
You're mostly correct, but all the light in the world won't benefit your plants unless some of it is the two bands of wavelength that plants can use. 30 watts of full spectrum fluorescent will out perform 500 watts of mh if the mh puts out light in say only the wavelengths that we perceive as green or yellow.
absolutely.
 
thanks jakej... i've read that one before also... great read, definitely. i'm actually using t3 spiral cfl's as it is and that article helped me feel o.k. about it when i was thinking of switching.

i want to list a few links i found helpful on lighting for reference here:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/guide3.shtml
http://www.sunmastergrowlamps.com/SunmLightandPlants.html
http://www.homeharvest.com/whichgrowlightisrightforme.htm
http://extension.missouri.edu/publications/DisplayPub.aspx?P=G6515
http://www.bcb.uwc.ac.za/ecotree/photosynthesis/spectrum.htm
http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/fluorescent.html
http://www.exoticrainforest.com/Will green light kill.html
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/97622-par-data-selecting-t5ho-light.html
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookPS.html
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/apc-polls/16608-light-spectrum-do-you-prefer.html
http://retirees.uwaterloo.ca/~jerry/orchids/light.html
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/105774-par-vs-distance-t5-t12-pc.html
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147012&highlight=cfl
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173181
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2393902#post2393902
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217694


just some light reading and what i have easily available on this pc. hopefully that gives somebody some insight/info/help/etc. as well as keeps people from assuming i haven't been doing my homework. ;) if someone has something i haven't listed i'd be happy to give it a thrice-over. :D

what i would still like to know...
why do we suggest 1.5+ wpg, pc or t5ho, and "low light, easy plants"?
IE: java ferns, java moss, crypts, etc. ... when that lighting CAN support A WHOLE LOT of plants... :wall:
 
One problem with understanding all the articals and such about water perimeters and lighting is that I haven't started HS so alot of the terms and stuff and alien to me!
 
what i sometimes do with things that are foreign to me is re-read them till they make sense and cross-reference whatever i need to. it really helps.
 
wpg is only a very rough 'guideline' used by LFS for T8/12 for plants. The plant sitting at the bottom really don't care how big the tank it is living in. The only thing matter from the tank dimension perspective is the depth of the tank. 50 watt of light over a depth of 12 inch is the same amount of light no matter the tank is 20 gal or 200 gal.

You mentioned that "i'd say more along the lines that watts are a quantity of power and par is a quantity of usable (quality) light. watts actually has no direct relation to light output except when comparing identical light sources or when wattages being compared or not even in the same ballpark.". This is an excellent and important point. As technology changes (ie. LED), 50 watt of lights will mean different thing for different lighting source.

I think a much better reference for lighting need is to actually specify the PAR rating for each type of plants. However, this may be difficult for common aquarists as they don't have a PAR meter to check. That's why the wpg is still so popular up to now...

Bongy
 
What about all the fear mongers claiming testing PO4 and NO3 are so important for planted tanks?

Then they do not test light:werd:?????????

Light meters cost $$, but are fairly easy to use.
Testing PO4 and NO3 is relatively cheap.
Doing NO3/PO4 testing correctly is more involved and rarely done.

CO2 is the lynch pin for those that use it.
It is tested even worse and there are many issues there, but cost, scale, time etc.........

Still, comparatively, PAR is about the best parameter can can use to measure light's effect on plants. By measuring several nice well scaped examples as references, we can begin to get a range that is useful for any species that is grown in such tanks.

Since we have a control or a reference aquarium, the rest of the problems MUST be due to nutrients or CO2 since we know based on the examples from the nice tank references, the light is independent and not a factor in the lack of success.

Nutrients are easy to rule out as a limiting factor and the aquarist does not need any test kit to do this with ferts and water change via EI.

This leaves CO2 as the main factor.
But........CO2 is tricky and involves current, O2, different species, filtration and flow through, type and flow rates through the diffusion method etc.

Many get impatient with CO2, and kill their fish, no one has killed fish near as anyone can tell from overdoing KNO3. But the fear mongers seem to conveniently ignore this.

Still, less light = less CO2 demand, so easier management.
30-50 micromols is ideal for 90% or more of the aquarist goals, it also uses much less electricity and saves a lot on the electric bill.

A PAR meter can be bought and shared among a group of aquarist, or bought, used and then sold. We use a club meter and share it. It does not get a lot of use, it's a fast thing to test and measure, not hard.

Main issue is the cost. It is hard to say how much light folks have, there are plenty of surprises. Most think they have less than they do, ADA was the other way around, much less than one might predict.

T5's are really quite bright, about 200-300% more than the old Watt/gallon rules that used T12's 2 decades ago. 200-300% error is quite large, not calibrating test kits can also result in similar ranges.

Ironically, some have criticized EI dosing for being inaccurate/wasteful, but compared to what? Light? Co2? These two cost more and pose far far more risk to issues with planted tank management than anything to do with ferts(which are the easiest things we can control).

If you subscribe to "less is better", then it has to start with lighting.
What is just enough light?



Regards,
Tom Barr
 
the master speaks....

always an enlightening discussion, thanks for your time, tom.
 
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