Mafia 78- The Gunslinger Returns...The Play

[Taysius]

Chill, I make mistakes now and then but I'm not stupid. Go back to my original post naming you as my suspect.

What about my mistake would have mislead anyone about you?

Thinking at the time that you HAD been evil one time in some other game when Wizard was innocent helped you instead of hurt you.

I got that other game wrong (as we've been over) and you weren't evil. But that only prevented me from saying...... "you've never been evil when Wizard was innocent"... which would have been a stronger, more convincing way to phrase my post.

You think I opted to misquote a game reference so I couldn't make a bolder statement than I did? Be serious. That mistake changed nothing else about the post I made or the reasons I had in this game for suspecting you Day1.

If I was evil in this game now and invented a bogus case against you on purpose to show your question 'who's fooled Wizard before?' deliberately excluded you from consideration, thus pointing us to look elsewhere...... it would have been better for the argument I made to get the old game reference right than it was to mistakenly get it wrong. I made a mistake about an old game... yes. But the case I presented didn't benefit from that mistake. And still, you question whether I did that on purpose?

Seriously, I'm not going to make a case weaker than it really is on purpose, no matter which side I'm on.

Now, as you want to discuss the werewolf game too....

Yes, I was a man at arms (townie) and I was communicating with JB and JM the whole time the game was underway, even after I died. We figured out right away that Lab Rat was scum and yes I was killed at some point. I don't know anymore which day I actually died, but I died. JB and I both died, leaving JM as the last living man at arms.

I started the spreadsheet at game start like I always do. But since I was communicating innocent, I didn't need it to keep track of details. Our communicating board took it's place. I have to rely more heavily on those spreadsheets to keep track whenever I'm not on a communicating team. It gives me something useful to work from when I'm playing this game alone and I've got no one to converse with.

In this case, I abandoned that particular spreadsheet very soon in that game and kept track of things through live dialogue with my communicating teammates instead. And yes, I also abandon the spreadsheets altogether once I'm killed and I stop following the game so close.. as I told you before. At the time I stopped using the spreadsheet for reference, it was still when I suspected you and Lady G were both evil and that's why your name appears in red.

Earlier, you mentioned that you abandon spreadsheets after you die in a game. You just now decide to throw in that in this particular case you abandoned it even sooner. I don't give a hoot about game #73, what I am concerned with is how your story is evolving and changing.

I also don't think you expected Chill to be Wiz's choice. If I remember, you were a bit shocked when the shot was taken. We would never have been looking into your claims like this if he had shot someone else. I think you made a classic post of heavy information to give the town the impression that you are helping to find scum and it backfired when Wiz chose to shoot who you posted about.

 

[Kashta]

Kash I take it by your suspect list you neither strongly suspect Rich nor do you buy into his Ice/Jpap theory?

I haven't had a chance to get to Rich yet this game. I do suspect Rich but hadn't been able to pull all his posts yet. You people have wasted a lot of my time discussing the stupid mistake I made instead.

Now that I've done that, yes I strongly suspect Rich. And I think his theory about Pappy and Ice is crap. I've just been focused more recently on the way Lady G and Taysius have been posting so they caught my attention and have used up most of the time I have for this game.

That said, here's what I think of Rich and his posts.

Chill, I started suspecting Rich from the time he said this... (in red).

That was tried last time and didn't work out to well till they were down to 1 and able to hide.

Since you answered with the term "I" are you admitting to being mafia?

Yes of course I am.

Rich is one of few players who could openly admit being scum like that and still get away with it because we'd likely attribute the remark to his snide sense of humor.

That was tried last time and didn't work out to well till they were down to 1 and able to hide.

Since you answered with the term "I" are you admitting to being mafia?

You got lucky. Does not mean it will happen again.

Rich is right about this. Ice has later remarked about that game that he got lucky... getting 3 accurate shots in a row surprised even him.

Scary thought is he gets the gun if he is not scum.

Facetious comment or blatant opinion. Either way, it dissuades us from shooting FF. When Rich posted this, I was more suspicious of those who were poking at FF early in the game. But the more FF has "contributed" since, I have him among my suspects. If FF turns out to be scum, which is likely, here is a nice subtle way Rich was discouraging us from shooting him.

I would not shoot Ice. he love his off the wall theories and many times they are not as far fetched as in the first reading. I would believe right now he wants to be shot if the Wiz cant figure out some one else as scummy.

I cant figure if Pigs is a confused newbie who is innocent or a mafia who realizes he might be in trouble and is trying to dig out of it. I would consider shooting him.

If I had to shoot right now I would shoot LG, something does not quite feel right about her. If I was wrong LG getting the gun would not be the worst thing in the world.

Agreed with Rich at the time and still do. IMO Ice wanted that gun so bad he didn't care Wizard had to die just so he could get it.

Normally, Rich as mafia would suggest Jspigs is innocent or they're distancing. In this game, however, it's real easy for scummates to play both sides against the middle and build strong cases against members of their own team. Statements in posts and suspect lists can be explained away later and we get no patterns from vote analysis or nightfall events to base comparison. We get very a few misses (not to mention UDs) and the mafia win is virtually guaranteed. Most of their team is, therefore, expendable.

No matter who's on which side, how well the town does, or how the mod tries to tweak the rules a little to make this game better balanced, I doubt we'll ever see the town win playing this format.

Example in point of what I just said above. Thanks to the loss of Wizard, the UDs, and Ice throwing us off by acting scummy early on so he could get the gun.... Rich and Lady G both get shot and flip scum... and the town still lose this game. The numbers favor the mafia too much.

I posted my thoughts think what you like. Makes no never mind to me.

Yes Ice having the gun would not be a bad thing. I would rather he have the gun much later on.

I would hesitate to shoot pigs because he is new and he may not have a feel about everyone yet.

Rich wanted us not to shoot Jspigs. I think the mafia liked the idea of maybe the town battling it out between Rich and Lady G instead as both they are both hard to pin down just in the thread without actual lynch votes or invest results. That's all it would take.... once the dust cleared, Jspigs would turn out to be their ace in the hole for the win. This being Jspig's very first game, we'd naturally avoid giving him the gun.

I have always found LG to be a fine player, a bit confused at times but that has nothing to do with reading people that has to do with reading rules.

I know every rule by heart and I have no clue who is who most of the time.

Rich has wanted us to shoot Lady G and has said so many times. This serves them 2 purposes... this tends to clear Lady G a bit more in the minds of those who think Rich is scum and it makes Lady G seem more scummy to those who view Rich as possibly innocent.

I also was quite serious about my thoughts on giving FF the gun. There is almost no way I would ever shoot him and subject the rest of you to him with power.

Another post from Rich I glossed over when it was made. Now, it's hard to tell if FF or Jspigs is their teammate. Rich seems to have been protecting both of them all along.

What is the difference between considering and hesitate, I did not say 19 minutes ago I would blow his head of I said I would consider it.

I love the semantics and word twisting. I keep forgetting in the is game , Jane run, **** walk, Rich would consider shooting some one, which of course is the opposite of hesitate. I must have been out that day of vocabulary class.

Posts like that just make my head hurt.

The way I read it, "considering it" means leaning more toward while "hesitate" implies leaning more away from. It's a subtle difference, but IMO, it's there.

Good enough for me. Got me again.

When all else fails... just openly admit you're mafia and no one will take that seriously.... at least, not from Rich.

Yet you would still consider shooting someone who has just started playing? Would you rather have someone with at least some experience or a complete newb to have the gun?

All day and twice on Sunday.

Now Rich does a flip-flop.

What about her posts makes you think so?

I have not seen much to change my mind about things. I wish I had found even a small revelation in today's posting, but not so far.

I still would not shoot Ice. I am rethinking my pick of LG though. I have to digest all of this a bit.

Would a mafia member be out there throwing around ideas or just grunting that makes sense or some such not committal post.

Adding to the confusion about Lady G.

And now we get to Rich's spin on Pappy's invest result clearing Ice as an innocent....

Problem is anyone can get the investigation.

Nicely throws out that suggestion

You've posted since this one...any revelations?

If I had one you would know.

Again, Rich isn't interested in really helping the town.

It is interesting that Ice said the investigation should be revealed and then Jpap reveals it and look who it is.

Still I think it is legit. Nothing to be gained by lying about it.

Noncommittal so it's a safe post to make. The important thing is he raises doubt about Pappy and Ice.

This is silly, no one has any thoughts but the same 5 people?

I would say LG. Kash at this point.

Rich settles on his teammate and someone else (me) who's suddenly drawn the town's attention.

Maybe you should just start shooting from the lowest poster. We would probably lose as they can't all be mafia but if no one helps we are going to lose anyway.

I honestly think Rich really doesn't care who we shoot. At this point now, the mafia already knows they're going to win no matter which way the shots play out.

I will take a stab at this. If I were to shoot right now I would shoot, LG. She has not sat well with me and has not been as active as I expect her to be.

If she came up innocent I would probably shoot Kashta as she is playing sloppy and making mistakes in her facts which is not like her. I find that mafia tend t5o be sloppier than innocents as they are really trying to prove anything anyway.

If LG came up mafia I would probably shoot Tay though I would still consider Kashta as well. tay has not been giving me a warm and fuzzy feeling, no real anything to her posts.

After all that I would shoot Pigs or one of the non posters. Pigs sudden mind changes are either odd or he is just following along. Both not good signs to me.

Rich opts for consistency regarding Lady G and calls my game sloppy. Nice touch there, Rich.

Thats possibly the worst plan i've ever heard. Shoot the lowest poster and they will still never show up, if their innocent you now have an invalid as slinger, and basically give the mafia a chance to put the gun is anothers hands. Not smart.



Still a bad idea...



Wow, i totally missed that! Pappy, why would you be evil in both your senarios?



Well, saturday my computer hog of a stepbrother hogged the comp all day, and sunday we went to the pool from around noon (we just finished lunch) till about 5 (we got back and had ribs!) and then my stepbrother beat me to the comp, so i had to wait till late in the day to get on (after 7). And thats why i wasn't on much.


As for who i would shoot next.. .any vet will do. Best case, i hit scum and they lose a great player. Worst case, i hit an innocent and we get a great gunslinger. Its almost win-win, cept i would die. More specifically, i would hit Pappy. If he turned evil, Kashta would go next. If he turned innocent, he would have the gun and i would reccomend shooting LG, for suspecting him by the way he posted. No matter what though, i would try and keep the gun in the hands of vets more then noobs.

That is a cop out. Answer the question as given.

As for all of you and the great evidence you found with my quote about shooting the low posters at the time we were talking about the lack of posting and it was a sarcastic statement about it.

Now I know someone will say I don't beleive that, or some other great conspiracy plan about the statement, please know this it is my last word on that matter. I will not respond to any questions about it. it was a sarcastic joke and cranky half idea.

Ask away about my choices for shooting, I call them as I see them.

Rich gets cranky.

Still no Pir and no Salt I see. I like how I am on so many lists. Can I change my mind like FF or Pigs?

So i am on two lists now, awesome. I still cant figure what I that was so bad, but I can live with that. If we have to pick one of those names I would shoot Kash. I see no reason to waste shots on two people who obviously don't care and soon will die anyway.

I still say shoot LG.

Rich urged us to shoot Lady G but lowers that to put me first on his list. Still sticks with his previous case against Lady G.... but it's still better to shoot me first so that delays us shooting Lady G.

This post is simply filler.

This one too.

Now I am active, do not ever paint me with the same brush as a hoser who signs up and do not play, I always do my best in these games and may not post like I am Daniel Webster but I do my part.

If it makes you feel better Rich if FF is shot and scum this post lowers you on my list.

Who gives a ****.

I do not care about being on lists I care about be told I am not participating enough. If my math is right we get what two more shots depending on what Salt is.

I think you and Jpap are both mafia. It is just the kind of play you two would both enjoy.

Or you are both scum, the invest can go to anyone. It would be beautiful, cant risk a shot on either of you so you two bounce through till the end. It is brilliant.

Rich has caused all the "damage" he feels is necessary and simply leaves it at that.

 

[Taysius]

Wasn't expecting that yet, Wizard. Lab Rat?

Just for reference, this is Kash's first reaction to Wiz taking the shot. This is also before Lab announced Chill as slinger.

 

[Kashta]

Kash, ok lets say it was a honest mistake...from your spread sheet of that game....what about your spread sheet and re-reading of THIS game, how did you miss the conversation about the fact Pir, Labby and Tay were WW that game? You go back and re read everything, pull pretty much every post made, but you didn't notice what was actually posted THIS game...instead you go back to a past game that has no relevance to this one in any way and post something that is incorrect.

Nope, I don't have spreadsheets, nope I don't keep track of every single game played...but yes, I do go back and re read the game I am in...past games really have no baring on the one you are playing at this point.

When I made my posts about Chill (including the mistake), I was looking at spreadsheet #73 (the game number). Elsewhere in the thread other people mentioned the same game by name discussing other things unrelated to the post I made about Chill. I didn't pay any attention to which game the 73rd one was until after Wizard was dead and Chill had the gun when he asked me about that previous reference.

 

[rich311k]

I haven't had a chance to get to Rich yet this game. I do suspect Rich but hadn't been able to pull all his posts yet. You people have wasted a lot of my time discussing the stupid mistake I made instead.

Now that I've done that, yes I strongly suspect Rich. And I think his theory about Pappy and Ice is crap. I've just been focused more recently on the way Lady G and Taysius have been posting so they caught my attention and have used up most of the time I have for this game.

That said, here's what I think of Rich and his posts.

Chill, I started suspecting Rich from the time he said this... (in red).





Rich is one of few players who could openly admit being scum like that and still get away with it because we'd likely attribute the remark to his snide sense of humor.





Rich is right about this. Ice has later remarked about that game that he got lucky... getting 3 accurate shots in a row surprised even him.



Facetious comment or blatant opinion. Either way, it dissuades us from shooting FF. When Rich posted this, I was more suspicious of those who were poking at FF early in the game. But the more FF has "contributed" since, I have him among my suspects. If FF turns out to be scum, which is likely, here is a nice subtle way Rich was discouraging us from shooting him.



Agreed with Rich at the time and still do. IMO Ice wanted that gun so bad he didn't care Wizard had to die just so he could get it.

Normally, Rich as mafia would suggest Jspigs is innocent or they're distancing. In this game, however, it's real easy for scummates to play both sides against the middle and build strong cases against members of their own team. Statements in posts and suspect lists can be explained away later and we get no patterns from vote analysis or nightfall events to base comparison. We get very a few misses (not to mention UDs) and the mafia win is virtually guaranteed. Most of their team is, therefore, expendable.

No matter who's on which side, how well the town does, or how the mod tries to tweak the rules a little to make this game better balanced, I doubt we'll ever see the town win playing this format.

Example in point of what I just said above. Thanks to the loss of Wizard, the UDs, and Ice throwing us off by acting scummy early on so he could get the gun.... Rich and Lady G both get shot and flip scum... and the town still lose this game. The numbers favor the mafia too much.



Rich wanted us not to shoot Jspigs. I think the mafia liked the idea of maybe the town battling it out between Rich and Lady G instead as both they are both hard to pin down just in the thread without actual lynch votes or invest results. That's all it would take.... once the dust cleared, Jspigs would turn out to be their ace in the hole for the win. This being Jspig's very first game, we'd naturally avoid giving him the gun.



Rich has wanted us to shoot Lady G and has said so many times. This serves them 2 purposes... this tends to clear Lady G a bit more in the minds of those who think Rich is scum and it makes Lady G seem more scummy to those who view Rich as possibly innocent.



Another post from Rich I glossed over when it was made. Now, it's hard to tell if FF or Jspigs is their teammate. Rich seems to have been protecting both of them all along.



Posts like that just make my head hurt.





When all else fails... just openly admit you're mafia and no one will take that seriously.... at least, not from Rich.





Now Rich does a flip-flop.



Adding to the confusion about Lady G.

And now we get to Rich's spin on Pappy's invest result clearing Ice as an innocent....



Nicely throws out that suggestion





Again, Rich isn't interested in really helping the town.



Noncommittal so it's a safe post to make. The important thing is he raises doubt about Pappy and Ice.



Rich settles on his teammate and someone else (me) who's suddenly drawn the town's attention.



I honestly think Rich really doesn't care who we shoot. At this point now, the mafia already knows they're going to win no matter which way the shots play out.



Rich opts for consistency regarding Lady G and calls my game sloppy. Nice touch there, Rich.





Rich gets cranky.





Rich urged us to shoot Lady G but lowers that to put me first on his list. Still sticks with his previous case against Lady G.... but it's still better to shoot me first so that delays us shooting Lady G.















Rich has caused all the "damage" he feels is necessary and simply leaves it at that.

That is brilliant, i am almost convinced myself. only problem is you are completely wrong.

 

[Kashta]

When I made my posts about Chill (including the mistake), I was looking at spreadsheet #73 (the game number). Elsewhere in the thread other people mentioned the same game by name discussing other things unrelated to the post I made about Chill. I didn't pay any attention to which game the 73rd one was until after Wizard was dead and Chill had the gun when he asked me about that previous reference.

Sorry, I meant to add this too.

None of us remember old game by game number. We remember them better by title, theme, or roles when going by memory. I didn't know yet that that game was the werewolf one until I had to tell Chill which game I referred to earlier. So after he asked me about it, I checked to see which game #73 was so I could include the title in my post and not reference it by number only.

 

[Kashta]

old game = old games

 

[Taysius]

When I made my posts about Chill (including the mistake), I was looking at spreadsheet #73 (the game number). Elsewhere in the thread other people mentioned the same game by name discussing other things unrelated to the post I made about Chill. I didn't pay any attention to which game the 73rd one was until after Wizard was dead and Chill had the gun when he asked me about that previous reference.

Sorry, I meant to add this too.

None of us remember old game by game number. We remember them better by title, theme, or roles when going by memory. I didn't know yet that that game was the werewolf one until I had to tell Chill which game I referred to earlier. So after he asked me about it, I checked to see which game #73 was so I could include the title in my post and not reference it by number only.

More evolving of the story. I really wish you would tells us straight the first time rather than altering it as you go to suit your needs. It wouldn't waste so much of your time as you put it if you'd just tell us the way it happened one time instead of revising it over and over.

 

[Kashta]

I never like it when people seem to get so bent out of shape when they are on the hot seat. What does it matter how many of us play like you? Are you saying don't shoot you because you're better at this than the rest of us because that's what it comes off like. I mentioned before that if you really read the thread as closely as you claim, even reading it twice, you would see that it had already been discussed who was evil that game. You're a smart woman so it's hard for me to believe that you didn't know that was the same game you were going to refer to. Especially since the reason it was ever brought up was because we hit Wiz first.

I guess if you're going to try to use past games as some sort of evidence you should either update your spreadsheets at the end of the game or just search for the old game thread before you post. I don't really know what else to tell you. If it was someone else that made that mistake then I think you'd be all over them as well.

This post only goes to prove the point made already about Taysius' attitude in this game. And that's an excellent indication of her role.

Here I'm condemned for misquoting an old game and Taysius takes that further to imply I did that on purpose.

Dear Taysius... thank you for the sweet offer of behalf of ACville choosing me to serve as sole mafia historian of all games. Sadly, I must decline the position as the salary you propose is unsatisfactory. It's neither worth my time nor does it suit my interest. Yours very truly, Kashta.

 

[Kashta]

Chill, I have to say...I'm so glad I'm not in your shoes right now!!!

It bites so much that both Pir and Salt came up as innocent, if one of them could of at least posted something we could still have a chance. With them both coming up innocent it has put us in quite a predicament here.

If it were me, I really don't know...Rich does stand out alot to me, Kash well her huge defensive post really stands out, aside from the fact I know I pointed out the fact it was mentioned in this game, I know you pointed it out, and so did Tay and as far as I can see she has never addressed that just pointing out that she went by an old spreadsheet. I also see a strong case to shoot JS or FF.

Good luck with whoever you chose!!!

That's right, Lady G... I'm given a choice between leyting you blow a little thing out of proportiong trying to get Chill to shoot me.... or I answer the questions he asks as he asks them so you can lable me defensive.

Nice plan. You win either way, don't you?