Discus breeders in and around Virginia?
- Thread starter Lillyan
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I disagree that they always need more than weekly water changes. If heavily stocked, yes. Again, the ones at the shop I was running were breeding in the sales tanks with weekly 50% water changes and fed NLS exclusively. Although it is physically a single item food, it is mix of ingredients that provide complete and balanced nutrition and is healthier than a hodge podge of high protein frozen foods.
Everything I have said is based on my personal experience and the experiences of customers, clients, and other aquarium servicers I have talked to. I am not simply repeating what I have heard or read.
The breeder that I said had buckets of meds because his fish had problems on a regular basis did the aggressive daily water change schedule with RO that I am talking about. Another breeder I have talked to who does weekly water changes with tap water does not have those issues. It is very possible to have discus thrive with only weekly water changes.
I do not agree with the idea of high quality discus. To me a high quality discus is a healthy one that I enjoy, whether someone else likes it or not. The standards that are set for color, pattern, conformation, etc. are simply made up. People somewhere and some time decided that is how discus should look. I do not think this should determine which fish I choose to have in my personal tanks. I think other people should realize they have the option to do this as well.
Everything I have said is based on my personal experience and the experiences of customers, clients, and other aquarium servicers I have talked to. I am not simply repeating what I have heard or read.
The breeder that I said had buckets of meds because his fish had problems on a regular basis did the aggressive daily water change schedule with RO that I am talking about. Another breeder I have talked to who does weekly water changes with tap water does not have those issues. It is very possible to have discus thrive with only weekly water changes.
I do not agree with the idea of high quality discus. To me a high quality discus is a healthy one that I enjoy, whether someone else likes it or not. The standards that are set for color, pattern, conformation, etc. are simply made up. People somewhere and some time decided that is how discus should look. I do not think this should determine which fish I choose to have in my personal tanks. I think other people should realize they have the option to do this as well.
You really should call and talk to Hans about discus. You would learn quite a bit about discus husbandry. Sorry Hans.
As for weekly water changes...you have to take into account where discus originated from. The water quality and water refresh rate cannot even be close to reproduced in an enclosed environment. When you breed an animal to achieve a certain quality you cannot change certain things about the animal that makes them thrive at their utmost potential. And even though different color strains have been bred from wilds the shape has not changed for the most part. We did not breed a discus to be round. They look like that in the wild. I have seen alot of jaw dropping round as platters, huge, brightly colored discus pulled straight out of the wild. Not a single human hand had any decision on what fish bred to what. Why do they look like that...because of the supreme water conditions. To achieve healthy growth rate for a long lived and healthy individual it is best to try and reproduce those conditions that the animal has evolved for thousands of years to live in.
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So reptileguy, how much water change do you think I need on my tank? It's a 265G by the way.
Shots of fish:
Videos:
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Shots of fish:
Videos:
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[YT]dNoF32V2siA[/YT]
Love the tank. Something about a biotope that really sets off the wilds look. I aspire to a 265g someday...210g is my biggest so far 
but it is mainly a ray tank. Love the geos also..are they red heads? Nice coloration to them.
It's a beautiful tank, but it's not a biotope, clown loaches and discus do not come from the same geographical region...although it seems like the fish (cories, GBR, rummynoses, Geos, etc.) were put together because of having compatible water chemistry requirements, for the most part. Warm, acidic water. Although clown loaches come from a highly oxygenated environment and discus come from stiller waters, those large clowns do look big and healthy.
It's hard to tell on these larger tanks, but it seems kind of overstocked to me...though it looks lovely.
Do the cories manage to escape the rams and Geos aggression? Cories don't usually get the concept of territories and tend to wander into bottom dwelling cichlids' caves...it looks like your fish (and tank, for that matter) are mature enough, I imagine that you've had them together a while.
It's hard to tell on these larger tanks, but it seems kind of overstocked to me...though it looks lovely.
Do the cories manage to escape the rams and Geos aggression? Cories don't usually get the concept of territories and tend to wander into bottom dwelling cichlids' caves...it looks like your fish (and tank, for that matter) are mature enough, I imagine that you've had them together a while.
The problem with Reptileguy is he makes no distinction between adult discus and juvenile discus. His advice is so far off I don't know whether I should laugh or cry. No such thing as a high quality discus? That would explain the poorly shapen one in your avatar. The problems with LFS's are many. Things that haven't even been touched on are:
1) Central filtration systems with multiple species all on the same loop. Fish are exposed to pathogens that they have never encountered, and might not develope symptons until the new owner has had them for a week or longer.
2) Improper sanataion of equipment. Your typical LFS employee making pennys more than minimum wage doesn't care that the net he is about to net your new discus just came out of a tank of neon tetras with a bad case of ich.
3) Poor stock-LFS's need to make a mark up of at least 3x the wholesale price. In order not to price themselves out of a sale, they need to purchase young discus that are still growing and are often "b" grade. They then fail to meet there nutritional needs choosing to feed only once, maybe twice a day and often they get no food on sundays. This is fine for an adult, but for the typical 3" discus this will have long term consequences.
Trying to state that discus purchased in fish stores are somehow healthier because they have survived higher levels of pathogens and poor water quality is nothing more than a self serving sham. Can I ask, do you raise your kids with this analogy as well? Healthy, well cared for Discus have healthy immune systems. Discus that have not been well cared for do not. End of story.
Rick
1) Central filtration systems with multiple species all on the same loop. Fish are exposed to pathogens that they have never encountered, and might not develope symptons until the new owner has had them for a week or longer.
2) Improper sanataion of equipment. Your typical LFS employee making pennys more than minimum wage doesn't care that the net he is about to net your new discus just came out of a tank of neon tetras with a bad case of ich.
3) Poor stock-LFS's need to make a mark up of at least 3x the wholesale price. In order not to price themselves out of a sale, they need to purchase young discus that are still growing and are often "b" grade. They then fail to meet there nutritional needs choosing to feed only once, maybe twice a day and often they get no food on sundays. This is fine for an adult, but for the typical 3" discus this will have long term consequences.
Trying to state that discus purchased in fish stores are somehow healthier because they have survived higher levels of pathogens and poor water quality is nothing more than a self serving sham. Can I ask, do you raise your kids with this analogy as well? Healthy, well cared for Discus have healthy immune systems. Discus that have not been well cared for do not. End of story.
Rick
As far as water changes are concerned the same is true for any species we keep in aquariums, not just discus. All the fish we keep in aquariums get a constant water change in nature that can only be matched in captivity by a constant water change system, something very few aquarists do.
I think that discus breeding is proof enough that the water change schedule is at least adequate. More is always better, but I do not think that in every case they have to be more than weekly.
I also do not look at nature as ideal. It is not ideal, so things being similar to or different from what they would be in nature does not make them more or less better.
Yes, discus being round is a natural trait, but there is variation. And deciding that one extreme of that natural variation is better or worse than the other is a human decision that was made. If some discus are not as tall and round but people still like them and they are still healthy it should not matter and does not matter to me personally. As long as they are healthy and people enjoy them it is okay in my opinion.
I think that discus breeding is proof enough that the water change schedule is at least adequate. More is always better, but I do not think that in every case they have to be more than weekly.
I also do not look at nature as ideal. It is not ideal, so things being similar to or different from what they would be in nature does not make them more or less better.
Yes, discus being round is a natural trait, but there is variation. And deciding that one extreme of that natural variation is better or worse than the other is a human decision that was made. If some discus are not as tall and round but people still like them and they are still healthy it should not matter and does not matter to me personally. As long as they are healthy and people enjoy them it is okay in my opinion.
Discus breeding should not be confused with discus spawning, they are miles apart. Try to tell me you have had them SUCCESFULLY spawn and attach, and have raised a batch of fry to adulthood with your feeding and water change regimen, and I will first ask for proof, and then would love to compare your results with mine. Until you can do that, you are what you are, a fish salesman. Trying to make a case stating that they are somehow healthier just do to the mere fact they have spent a few weeks in the tanks at your store is ridiculous.
Rick
Rick
That is my point right there. The discus in my avatar is a beautiful fish. I do not care if it fits the arbitrary, made up description that someone else decided discus should be. It is a beautiful animal and that is why I hand picked it from the wholesaler. Many people have felt the same way over the years (in the shop where it was in the display tank and people on forums seeing it as my avatar) and that is why we were able to sell it for $125 at the shop. The fact that the people who liked it haven't been told to like certain traits in discus and look down on others allowed those people to enjoy that fish. I still think it is the most beautiful discus I have seen. Yes, the high end discus are also amazingly beautiful and stunning, but I am glad to say that I can still appreciate and enjoy the 'lower quality' discus that are out there.
Many if not most centralized filtration systems utilize UV sterilizers so that it is impossible for water in one tank to get to another without going through the UV. Very few pathogens can infect healthy, unstressed fish. You can expose them to pathogens all day long and they won't get sick. Stress them and no matter how sterile your procedures are they WILL come down with something.
I personally do not agree with sterilizing everything. Things have immune systems. It doesn't matter if the net was just in a tank with ich, it is not going to spread ich unless the other fish are stressed. I am not saying I would do this knowingly or suggest it, just that it is not this evil that if there is ich around fish will get it.
That markup is not accurate. I work at a local shop and ran it in the past. That may be the ideal, but depending on what type of fish it is, what we have to pay, what the demand is, etc. that can vary dramatically. We fed discus 3-4 times daily. This may not be the extreme that some breeders go to, but again they were thriving. I don't know why a shop wouldn't feed on Sunday. Perhaps you are referring to any day they happen to be closed (which may or may not be Sunday) but even then many if not most shops still have someone come in to feed. I think most local shops take better care than the homes most fish go in to. So the fact that a local shop may not match the care a breeder may provide doesn't really say anything to me. If anything these fish need to get ready for home care, which is likely not to match that of breeders.
That is the opposite if Biology. If an animal is never exposed to pathogens it doesn't develop a strong immune system. There have been studies showing that the younger children were when they started working in the barn the less likely they were to have allergies or asthma. Another study showed that children who are pampered are much less capable of handling stressful situations as adults than people who did have stress as a child. Yes, I will raise my children under the idea that it is okay to be exposed to germs and that sometimes the other team wins and you lose. I think children are a good analogy to this. Which is hardier: the yuppy kid who is pampered, is sheltered, never gets to play in the dirt, has to wash his hands after every time he touches anything, or the kid who drinks from the garden hose after exploring in the woods all morning and who does have to deal with real life let downs?
Many if not most centralized filtration systems utilize UV sterilizers so that it is impossible for water in one tank to get to another without going through the UV. Very few pathogens can infect healthy, unstressed fish. You can expose them to pathogens all day long and they won't get sick. Stress them and no matter how sterile your procedures are they WILL come down with something.
I personally do not agree with sterilizing everything. Things have immune systems. It doesn't matter if the net was just in a tank with ich, it is not going to spread ich unless the other fish are stressed. I am not saying I would do this knowingly or suggest it, just that it is not this evil that if there is ich around fish will get it.
That markup is not accurate. I work at a local shop and ran it in the past. That may be the ideal, but depending on what type of fish it is, what we have to pay, what the demand is, etc. that can vary dramatically. We fed discus 3-4 times daily. This may not be the extreme that some breeders go to, but again they were thriving. I don't know why a shop wouldn't feed on Sunday. Perhaps you are referring to any day they happen to be closed (which may or may not be Sunday) but even then many if not most shops still have someone come in to feed. I think most local shops take better care than the homes most fish go in to. So the fact that a local shop may not match the care a breeder may provide doesn't really say anything to me. If anything these fish need to get ready for home care, which is likely not to match that of breeders.
That is the opposite if Biology. If an animal is never exposed to pathogens it doesn't develop a strong immune system. There have been studies showing that the younger children were when they started working in the barn the less likely they were to have allergies or asthma. Another study showed that children who are pampered are much less capable of handling stressful situations as adults than people who did have stress as a child. Yes, I will raise my children under the idea that it is okay to be exposed to germs and that sometimes the other team wins and you lose. I think children are a good analogy to this. Which is hardier: the yuppy kid who is pampered, is sheltered, never gets to play in the dirt, has to wash his hands after every time he touches anything, or the kid who drinks from the garden hose after exploring in the woods all morning and who does have to deal with real life let downs?
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