why does everyone think my angel had columnaris

[p0tluck]

okay first things first my tank and water levels
55 gallon
aqua clear 110 HOB filter
nitrite 0
ammonia 0
ph 7.3
nitrate 20

This all started when i got red sores on 2 of my rainbows , i posted pics on forums, took the fish to 2 lfs not petsmart or a chain store.. family owned, one store said to treat with rid ich for a possible parasite, and melafix for the sore, i did both no improvement both rainbows died, then one of my rosy barbs started acting like my rainbow was , swimming with its mouth out of the top of the water then one night i saw him swim past the filter inlet and get sucked to it i immidiately turned off the filter took him out and euthanized him, so i was asked what my nitrates were... i was always told dont worry about nitrates so i never checked them, so i did the test they were at over 80 and thats AFTER i did 5 days of rid ich with 20-25% water changes daily so im guessing the nitrate was over 200 then i had a 2 red eye tetras that were showing signs of the same thing so i thought i would take them out and salt bath them. one died in the bowl, the other got pine cone scales so i had to euthanize him as well as theres no coming back after that symptom, so then i started seeing my female angelfish look like she was having resperatory issues and her bottom lip was white ( my angels fight constantlly, lip lock etc) i posted a pic on a forum and everyones like columnaris , it seems that no matter what you put on that site its columnaris so im actually tired of hearing that word lol, so i was told to drop my tank temp from 80 to 75, up salt to 1% , use fungus guard (old name was jungle cure i believe) which has furan 2 and potassium in it ( still no cure) , yes i went to a lfs that steered me wrong never told me i needed 6+ of schooling fish especially barbs so right now i have a lot of stress in the tank, and my tank is cloudy as all heck and i have no idea why...all my levels are perfect i did switch activated carbon brands i was using api bio chem sorb and switched to chemi-pure. i will post pictures so you can see my angels lip and i'll post pics of the sores that were on my rainbows Thanks

 

[Rbishop]

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/columnaris_disease.php

did you run carbon during all those medicine treatments?

Disease fighting shouldn't be shot gunned or by voting on suspected illness and treatment.

 

[Turbosaurus]

I'm sorry you got bad information- I know how frustrating it can be when you do everything you're told - because you take it seriously- only to find out your information source may not be reliable.

First- as juvinile angles mature the boys and girls will compete for the most desirable mate- just like human teenagers. If you have a black fish- any nick or scrape will show up pale-ish- a tiny scrape will remove the dark. I've bred angels for years- that fish in the photo looks completely healthy- I assume you are taking about the female at the front of the photo..

If you're looking for serious illness, look the way you would for a person (NOT AT ALL SUGGESTING THEY ARE THE SAME)- not wanting to interact with their friends, refusing food. Initial symptoms of sickness are not species specific- does you fish act like they are fatigued, antisocial (hiding, not making eye contact), or having difficulty breathing, etc.

- You have to use your eyes to decide how the fish acts and how the flesh looks- yes, we know the color is missing on the bottom lip- but there is no swelling, no fungus, no redness, no dots that would indicate a parasitic disease- so its probably the equivalent of a scraped knee. The most important indication of disease is how the fish behaves- a sick fish acts like a sick fish- they won't eat, they go pale (not just a lip), and they usually go pale in eye coloration too, they hide- they won't respond to tank makes (external stimuli).

The fact remains that fish in your tank are dying, and pretty rapidly. The idea this specific fish isn't sick YET should not be comforting. Sounds like you have a handle on the nitrates as a problem- get them down to less than 20 (gradually, with ~50% water changes, preferably daily or every other day) and set up a reasonable water change schedule to keep them there. Look into sticky threads on cycling; they will explain where nitrates come from and how to address it.

 

[p0tluck]

I'm sorry you got bad information- I know how frustrating it can be when you do everything you're told - because you take it seriously- only to find out your information source may not be reliable.

First- as juvinile angles mature the boys and girls will compete for the most desirable mate- just like human teenagers. If you have a black fish- any nick or scrape will show up pale-ish- a tiny scrape will remove the dark. I've bred angels for years- that fish in the photo looks completely healthy- I assume you are taking about the female at the front of the photo..

If you're looking for serious illness, look the way you would for a person (NOT AT ALL SUGGESTING THEY ARE THE SAME)- not wanting to interact with their friends, refusing food. Initial symptoms of sickness are not species specific- does you fish act like they are fatigued, antisocial (hiding, not making eye contact), or having difficulty breathing, etc.

- You have to use your eyes to decide how the fish acts and how the flesh looks- yes, we know the color is missing on the bottom lip- but there is no swelling, no fungus, no redness, no dots that would indicate a parasitic disease- so its probably the equivalent of a scraped knee. The most important indication of disease is how the fish behaves- a sick fish acts like a sick fish- they won't eat, they go pale (not just a lip), and they usually go pale in eye coloration too, they hide- they won't respond to tank makes (external stimuli).

The fact remains that fish in your tank are dying, and pretty rapidly. The idea this specific fish isn't sick YET should not be comforting. Sounds like you have a handle on the nitrates as a problem- get them down to less than 20 (gradually, with ~50% water changes, preferably daily or every other day) and set up a reasonable water change schedule to keep them there. Look into sticky threads on cycling; they will explain where nitrates come from and how to address it.

the angel eats, shes social, she is about to go to jail for domestic violence cause she beats up her mate as i only have a female and a male , her mouth is always open where as the males is not , i have lost a lot of fish in the past 2 months for some reason i have no idea unless it was because my nitrates were like well over 200 before i started meds ( yes i took the activates carbon out) and did a 35% water change before i started the treatments due to treating a dirty tank is like not treating one at all is what i was told.

as far as my other fish i do have 3 odessa barbs one female 2 males the female and one male is fine the other one stays hidden and wont eat, im assuming its stress related as i dont see anything wrong with him, i can supply an image as im new and i don't know what exactly to look for , i was never told that when buying schooling fish you have to have 6+ for them to be happy, i do 2, 25% changes weekly the 3rd week i clean my filter sponge and do a smaller change about 15%, i over use prime not by much say on 25% approx 14 gallons i use 1.5 ml of prime (could this be an issue?) i have treated 2 times with general cure , 5 days of rid ich (even though they didnt have ich) , 5 days of melafix , 1 treatment of fungus guard ( furan 2 and potassium (something) ), my salt is approx .5% as to i was advised to add aquarium salt and lower my water temp which was 79-80 down to 75.

As far as nitrates go i gravel vac 2 times a week clean filter sponge once a month and my nitrates are still above 40 ppm i have absolutely no idea why as since the recent deaths my bio load should have went way down, i lost about 8-9 fish in 2 months , i called the #2 ranked fish store in the united states they said malachite green but i just dont know anymore i have tried a bunch of meds and well the fish seem okay except the one odessa i still dont think my tank is 100%.

I was going to add more plants but i have an led fixture with H.O whites, lunar blues, color enchancing, and regular whites so i dont know if plants will grow i do have 2 anubias and 2 ferns, but im totally lost cause my nitrates should be <20 its been 3 weeks of PWC and filter sponge cleaning any ideas on that?

Thanks in adcance

 

[Turbosaurus]

Settle down Killer-
I love how excited you are that you've got a direction, and I'm glad I caught you before you bought meds that wouldn't help for a disease that didn't exist-
Be agressive now with multiple W/c per week to do two things:
1) restore healthy conditions
2) do it slow enough that you don't shock anything that's manged to survive
You can slow down soon- to give you unscientific recommendations- when you hit 40ppm, go to once per week, when you drop below 20 you can extend the time. Once per week is ideal for your fish (25% is fine), but you can go longer if you need to, don't freak out if its every 2nd or third week-

But be careful when cleaning filter media and gravel- that's where your real "filter" lives..
Make sure when you rinse media you do it with old tank water you are removing- municipalities treat tap water with chlorine to kill bacteria and since the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT factor in the health of your fish will be the bacteria that lives in your filter media... never the twain shall meet... In a fish tank you want "neat enough" NOT "clean freak"

Recovering from a 200ppm nitrate reading is very time/labor intensive- maintaining it is much less work. Once you get where you need to be, Once a week w/c in a reasonable stocked tank is IDEAL, once every two weeks is better than most- once a month the fish police might press charges- but you'd get a slap on the wrist. If you have time to stay on top of weekly water changes you can overstock the tank. If you're busy- keep stocking levels light(less fish!). If you want a built in comfort zone so you have more leeway - add plants that will take up the nitrate- but be warned- if you want to do anything other than put pothos clippings or lucky bamboo sticking out of the tank - you may end up in a more complicated mess than last time.

 

[p0tluck]

Settle down Killer-
I love how excited you are that you've got a direction, and I'm glad I caught you before you bought meds that wouldn't help for a disease that didn't exist-
Be agressive now with multiple W/c per week to do two things:
1) restore healthy conditions
2) do it slow enough that you don't shock anything that's manged to survive
You can slow down soon- to give you unscientific recommendations- when you hit 40ppm, go to once per week, when you drop below 20 you can extend the time. Once per week is ideal for your fish (25% is fine), but you can go longer if you need to, don't freak out if its every 2nd or third week-

But be careful when cleaning filter media and gravel- that's where your real "filter" lives..
Make sure when you rinse media you do it with old tank water you are removing- municipalities treat tap water with chlorine to kill bacteria and since the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT factor in the health of your fish will be the bacteria that lives in your filter media... never the twain shall meet... In a fish tank you want "neat enough" NOT "clean freak"

Recovering from a 200ppm nitrate reading is very time/labor intensive- maintaining it is much less work. Once you get where you need to be, Once a week w/c in a reasonable stocked tank is IDEAL, once every two weeks is better than most- once a month the fish police might press charges- but you'd get a slap on the wrist. If you have time to stay on top of weekly water changes you can overstock the tank. If you're busy- keep stocking levels light(less fish!). If you want a built in comfort zone so you have more leeway - add plants that will take up the nitrate- but be warned- if you want to do anything other than put pothos clippings or lucky bamboo sticking out of the tank - you may end up in a more complicated mess than last time.

yeah i always use fish water i syphoned out of the tank to clean sponges/media, heres another thing my water sometimes smells like dirt is that cause of the nitrates being higher? also i bought plants about 2 months before this all started that had snail eggs on them (i didnt know about the dip before you put them in the tank) so now im constantly picking out pest snails and the dead ones wont suck up in my gravel vac (water) i do have an ehiem battery vac that might work but i havent tried it as my nephew lost it lol. so could the snails be giving off something to my fish? also could there be mold on the 3 pieces of plastic decor i have in the tank?

 

[p0tluck]

its alot less stocked now since the deaths

 

[Turbosaurus]

It looks beautiful! I am so happy to see BOTH of your angels begging for food.


snails are fine- visually unappealing to many tank keepers, but that's the extent of their damage- many people appreciate them because when you see their population explode its a sign you're over feeding. Once they're in- they're there unless you add a loach that will eat them (yo can use chemical poisons too- but I don't recommend it), BTW many loaches like big schools, and some don't eat snails, so research them before you bring one home.

Don't worry about your dirty tank water if it smells like dirt, it IS dirt-y. It should smell like dirt.

Worry if it smells like... I don't know- how do you explain the difference between normal healthy decay and decay that's so intense its poison? Do you rake your own yard? That's healthy normal decay when you rake old leaves in the spring- if you know that smell, you'll notice the other- like leaving flowers in a vase too long.. a 'low-tide' stank. But that's indicative of serious problems- not creeping ones like high nitrate- you can NOT smell nitrate.

If (when) you add new fish- do it slow, a couple at a time so your bio filter can ramp up, and since I assume you don't have a quarantine tank, be really careful to ONLY bring home fish that are bright eyed and bushy tailed- its no guarantee, but its better than nothing. I don't want to see you do all this work and have it go sideways as soon as its stable.

 

[p0tluck]

actually in the process of setting up a 30 gallon QT tank/ hospital tank so this doesnt happen again but no one gave me a real answer to as if it needs to be cycled the answer i got was(conditioned water , heater and a sponge filter for aeration) but from i researched thats for a hospital tank are they the same thing? yeah its not a bad smell could just be food on the rim of the lip that didnt get into the water i know that can smell after a while, i was reading some fish cannot handle food with high protein i feed omega one veggie flakes and i soak them in water before i feed so fish arent sucking in air (dont know if thats nessessary), and yeah anytime i walk by the tank the angels come up to the surface doesnt matter if i just fed them , i know to be careful cause i heard angels will eat themselves to death (dont know how true that is either) , the lfs i go to i thought was the one cause i walked in they have thousand dollar plecos, all their tanks look like glass , species of fish that are like 300 dollars for the pair and cant be sold seperately, etc etc , but when i took my fish in to them so they could look at him they pretty much just gave me meds and said heres the fix and it wasnt, so then i went to another lfs and 4 tanks had ich and they didnt even know it but they are stocked with meds and stuff my real close lfs doesn't so i went up there to upgrade my heater cause i had an aqueon 300 watt for a 55 gallon upgraded to a 200 watt aqueon pro the 300 i would have set on 70 and it would keep my tank at 79-80 lol, and also to get meds which they gave me fungus guard which didnt do anything but stain my tank green, that image i posted was from about 5 months ago i should have never switched brands for my carbon i used to use bio chem sorb that made my tank like glass i got chemi-pure and my tank is a bit hazy maybe its just me but i like my tank to be crystal clear, you have been a great help i will check levels tomorrow and see where they're at after my 35% i did an hour ago.

Thank you a bunch and i'll stay in touch and update on the progress

 

[Tifftastic]

Sounds like you got all the advice you needed!

For your last question though, yes, a hospital/QT tank should have a cycled filter on it. What I used to do is keep an extra filter sponge and biobag in my filter and that way when the hospital tank went up (I took it down unless I needed it as the BF didn't like having an empty tank in our living room) I had cycled filter media to put in the filter.

Omega one is a great food it sounds like you are doing good. However, though some fish cannot handle high protein diets, some require them. A general "tropical flake" is suitable for most fish. But if you have piscivorous fish you would want to do a high protein pellet. The best color and growth I got out of my fish was when I was rotating foods like so:


M: Omega one color enhancing (has more vitamins) tropical flake mixed with hikari micro pellets
T: Omega one veggie flakes and hikari bottom feeder pellets and a hikari algae wafer broke into quarters and spread to different sides of the tank
W: Fast (water change/tank maintenance)
Th: Same as Monday
F: Hikari frozen blood worms and mysis shrimp
S: Same as Tuesday but blanched veggies or home made snail/bottom feeder food for the pleco/snails
Su: Fast 3 x per month but once per month live black worms

I fasted twice a week after I target fed the bottom guys because those were heavy food days and it seemed like I always had to feed a little extra to piggy little loaches those days. I worked at PetSmart and when people would return food (because it "smelled too fishy") rather than throw it out us employees would take it home for our fish, so I had quite the variety of flakes and pellets to try all the time. It was quite handy!
For this specific feeding regime I had 3 golden banded zebra loaches, 3 angelicus loaches, 8 rosy barbs, 6 scissor tail raspboras, a rubber lip pleco, 3 mystery snails, and a juvenile senegal bichir. But I have also done similar regimes with my 10 white clouds, 6 nerite snails, 2 L10A catfish, and 10 golden neon tetras. However, of course I couldn't do the mysis shrimp with the littler guys.
There are some great nutrition articles on MFK and there might be some on here if I remember right. But its actually fun to play with their food and make your own too.