Aces! Yet Another "I'm New and Unsure" Thread

S

shaggyspeedy

AC Members
Apr 14, 2003
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Toledo, OH, USA
www.shagout.net
Well, I finally decided to dive head first into Aquaria, something I've wanted to do since I was a child. Now while I read that the bigger you can go, the better, my checkbook figured otherwise, so I just went with a 10 gallon. Got the Gravel, Power Filter, some fake plants (the live plants will come later when I feel more comfortable), heater, etc. etc. etc. I set it all up, filled it with water, added the conditioner, and let it sit. That was Sunday night.

The next night, I read literature like a fiend. Normal Cycling, Fishless Cycling, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, pH levels, everything I could get my hands on. I picked up an Ammonia testing kit, though I hadn't decided if I wanted to go fishless or not.

After weighing the pros and cons, I gave in to the pressure from my fiancee, and we'll do the normal cycling.

So Monday Night, I test the Ammonia levels for giggles, and read an 0.5. Isn't bad, but then again, the water is only a day old.

Last night, my fiancee went out and bought a pH test (you know, the deluxe one that included the pH Down and the pH Up). So we tested for ammonia, another 0.5. Again, not good, but no biggie.

The real problem came on the pH test. The test only reads 6.0 - 7.6. We pinned it at 7.6. So my fiancee added some pH down. A couple of hours later, we test again. Again, it shoots staight to 7.6. Added more pH Down.

This morning, I tested for pH. That little vial turned bright blue and nearly swore at me in German. 7.6.

So I put some more pH Down in there, but the question remains, what's up with this? We haven't tested the pH out of the tap yet, though that's tonight. Should I even worry about it until some fish get in there? And is it maybe too late to go fishless?

Thanks in advance.
 
It's not too late to go fishless, but lowering your pH won't work unless the buffering capacity (read: hardness) is removed from your water. I would suggest getting fish which match your water parameters, specifically shelldwellers from Tanganyika.
 
The simple answer is that your water has high pH and that it is very difficult to lower pH using chemicals. In fact, for the beginner, I'd pretty much say that it's not possible.

The less simple answer is that water has some element of buffering - we refer to this as alkalinity or carbonate hardness (KH). The water's buffer serves to stabilize pH, and it takes up acids (much like a sponge) That's why you can add pH down and see an immediate decrease in pH, only to have it reverse later as the buffer takes up the acid. You CAN keep adding acid (i.e., pH Down) until the buffer is exhausted, but that leaves your water totally without buffering against pH change, allowing pH to swing wildly. To make matters worse, every time you do a water change, you'll replenish the buffer and pH will jump up.

What can you do? For starters, you can find a high-range pH kit. These usually measure up to 8.6 or 9.0, and can give you a better idea of what your water's pH actually is. What sort of fish do you want to keep? Most common hobby fish will do well in water with pH up to 8.0. Some of the softwater varieties may not breed in that water, but many of us successfully keep fish like tetras and angelfish in water near 8.0.

It isn't too late to go fishless and you might want to reconsider. Cycling with fish can be done, but for a novice it pretty much forces you to be hypervigilant to keep ammonia and nitrite levels low enough that your fish aren't killed or injured. You'll also have to do regular, sometimes daily, water changes to keep your fish healthy and/or alive. Fishless cycling forces you to look at an empty tank for however long it takes, but that's much better than looking at dead or stressed fish.

If you decide to go fishless, we can talk you through it. For starters, though, you'll want to find out what your water's acutal pH is. It wouldn't hurt to find out what its General Hardness (GH) and carbonate hardness (KH) are, either. Often, your LFS will test for you and tell you where you stand. (Just don't fall for a sales pitch for some magic potion that will 'fix' your problem.)

Good luck,
Jim
 
Welcome...

shaggy, to Aquaria Central, home of the most pH - conscious fishkeepers on the internet:)

The first thought is stop with the pH Up and Down. Better yet, toss it out. Adding chemicals to balance something as basic (no pun intended) as pH will just produce headaches for you. You'll need a high range pH test to get an idea of where your water is exactly.

As for ammonia, nothing's going to happen yet to the ammonia yet because there's nothing to break it down. Also, since you don't have any fish yet in the tank, there's nothing adding ammonia to the system yet. You've no doubt read about nitrogen cycle, and you may remember all kinds of cycles from your high school biology, but note that the aquarium is by and large a closed system, and you are putting all the inputs into it.

So, what kind of fish have attracted you to this point? Providing a good home in a small tank is a challenge, so let us know what you're thinking. And welcome, once again to AC.

Val

Edit: Jim and I must have posted at the same time, and once again his answer is more thorough than mine. Good luck...
 
I'll just throw in a quick 2 cents. If your pH really is at 7.6, you have nothing to worry about. As long as you don't get apistos or other specialty (expensive) fish, you shouldn't have a problem at all. If you're worried about it, ask your LFS where their pH is at, and acclimate the fish from there.
 
Originally posted by VoodooChild
I'll just throw in a quick 2 cents. If your pH really is at 7.6, you have nothing to worry about. As long as you don't get apistos or other specialty (expensive) fish, you shouldn't have a problem at all. If you're worried about it, ask your LFS where their pH is at, and acclimate the fish from there.
Click to expand...

This is true, but if shaggyspeedy's pH test is reading at it's max, he/she has no way of knowing if pH is 7.6 or 8.6 or higher.

I agree with the main thrust of Voodoo Child's post completely, though.

Jim
 
Originally posted by JSchmidt
This is true, but if shaggyspeedy's pH test is reading at it's max, he/she has no way of knowing if pH is 7.6 or 8.6 or higher.
Click to expand...

He, thank you. :D

After reading the suggestions posted, I'll probably run by the LFS today to pick up a higher end pH test. If we truly are in the 7.6 range, then I guess we really don't need to worry... it just gave us the shakes when the test peaked. I may pick up the Nitrite/Nitrate tests too, seeing as I'll need them later when I fishless cycle. ;) (My fiancee won't be happy, but she'll survive.)

And I hate to give out the common answer, but we're probably going to go with some Neon Tetras to start with. Sure, everybody has Neons, but it seems like a good starting point, especially for a tank as small as mine.

I've already done a lot of reading, and I already like the community here. I'm hoping to stick around and learn tons, though I hope the instant paranoia of LFSes will soon subside.
 
I do have one suggestion--you might want an ammonia test, too, since that will be the way in which you know that your tank has ended the ammonia phase of fishless cycling.
 
Well, take everything I just said and throw it out the window.

Before I left work, I called home to catch my fiancee before she left for class.

"Did you check the aquarium?" I asked.
"Yes, I did." She responded.
"So, how did it test?" I queried.
"I, er, uh, didn't check it like that." She says.

What?

Apparently she went to a different LFS (not that that's bad, I hadn't really found one I liked yet). The guy there sold her on an underground filter. He didn't have any to sell, but he told her that it'll help with bacteria growth.. which of course, it will.

Of course, to install an undergravel filter, you have to completely disassemble the tank.

So I come home, and the tank is empty, the undergravel filter sitting in the bottom. A new air pump sits nearby, lacking the split to hook it up to the filter. The gravel sits in a plastic tub, and the fake plants and outside power filter sits in a pot.

So, we start over. Hooray.

One quick brand-spankin new question... the guy at this new LFS says that he apparently uses this powder that neutralizes ammonia AND brings pH to 7.0... no word if it can turn water into wine or do your taxes yet. As much as I want to call shenannigans, my fiancee told me that she felt she could really trust this guy, as it's a "family business", and the guy gave her a business card with an e-mail and AIM name in case any problems arise. That seems pretty, for the lack of a better word, honest. So I'm not sure on this one.
 
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