Advice for Gourami w/possible dropsy

mduros

mduros

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Sep 20, 2005
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Chicago, Illinois
www.maryduros.com
Advice for Gourami w/possible dropsy - Bump - Roan? Any ideas?

Okay, I have a honey sunset gourami, I believe. He is red. He lost his partner about 15 days ago due to unknown causes. My water parameters have been extremely stable, then and now, and I do weekly water changes, 15 gallons of a 55 gallon tank normally. Sometimes 20 gallons when I feel like giving them an extra treat.
Nitrates - 20/40 ppm
Nitrites - 0
Ammonia - 0
PH - 7.6

So, the female had lost color and died suddenly. Her partner, developed what I thought was dropsy about a week later. He lost color, blew up like a balloon and had the tell tale protruding scales. I treated the entire tank with Melafix and Pimafix for 3 days and then moved him into quarantine and continued the treatment. He seemed to be responding, his color came back, his swelling went down a bit, and only some scales are still protruding. However, now he is very weak and listless, has not eaten since I moved him into quarantine, he hangs out by the surface, or lays under the filter. I stopped treating him over the weekend because it had been a little over a week. Even though I am a big fan of Melafix/Pimafix in my opinion it seems to begin stressing the fish a bit after 3 - 5 days.

Any ideas? Could it be something other than dropsy? Would it be safe for the other fish for him to live his remaining days in the big tank? He's a 1 1/2 inch fish in a 2.5 gallon quarantine. I feel really bad for him. Please any suggestions appreciated.
Take care,
Mary.

Picture of when he first got sick below.

gourami2.27.06_2.jpg


In December before he got sick, but sporting cuts obtained from red clawed shrimp.

gourami6.jpg
 
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Dropsy, is actually a "symptom" and not a disease in itself. the standing scales and blown up appearance are the result of swelling within the tissues and organs of the fish due to a build up of fluids in the kidneys and an inability to excrete this fluid in a normal manner. in other words, advanced kidney disfunction.

the problem with treating this disease is that there are a number of "potential" causes: bacterial infection, parasites, cancerous tumors, virus', internal fungal infections or sudden temperature drop of more than 3 degrees.

If the cause is bacterial, the swelling typically comes on pretty rapidly. if swelling is gradual then one or more of the other potential causes are more likely. unfortunately, treatment is most often useless at this point due to the advanced state of the disease process. When the illness, whatever the cause, has progressed far enough to cause internal swelling, the concommitant internal damage is usually too extensive to be repairable.

Melafix will have absolutely NO positive effect on the cause(s) of Dropsy. the latest research has shown that if the disease cause is bacterial and if the disease process is caught early enough, treatment with Romet B, a broad spectrum antibacterial, *may* be effective when used concurrent with an increase in water temperature to 84-86F for 2 weeks minimum.

BE CERTAIN to maintain HIGH OXYGEN LEVELS during such treatment since at these temperatures, water holds significantly less oxygen at these higher water temperatures. one of the suspected bacterial precursers to the disease process -- Aeromonas, is killed at these temperatures.

concurrently add 1/8 teaspoon of EPSOM SALT -- per 5 gallons of water. feeding foods soaked in ERYTHROMYCIN will kill the second suspected bacteria, Mycobacterium. in rare cases popeye has been found to be caused by Edwardsiella etarda. this is found *only* in fish that have been bred in outdoor ponds -- the functional bacteria in this case is carried by frogs. while fair to good results in treatment have been found by feeding Romet B., even better results have been found using injectable chloramphenicol or amakacin. this is best done by your veterinarian.

If parasites are a known cause, treat for them first for 3 days increasing the temperature to 86oF as fast as possible.

EPSOM SALT may help reduce the internal pressure casued by the swelling. extremely good aeration is necessary here due to the use of such high temperatures.

NEVER USE SALT (sodium chloride, a.k.a aquarium salt) for treatment of dropsy. this will KILL your fish in a very short time. the affected fish are already having a difficult time getting rid of salts due to kidney disfunction. this causes the blown up appearance and concurrent scale standing. the osmotic inbalance caused by addition of sodium to your tank water will make this condition far worse.

EPSOM SALT on the other hand, does not pass through the walls of the gut or gills and will extract water OUT of the surrounding tissue into the gut where it *may* be excreted.

also, you're not changing enough water. increase those water changes to about 50 percent.
 
Thank you. He swelled up in less than 12 hours. I began treating immediately since Melafix and/or Pimafix are supposed to be good for Dropsy and Malawi Bloat, and I had them on hand.

The QT water is up to 85 degrees, I was considering lowering it, but I'll leave it since you suggest it. I gave him a water change last night, and used water I had mixed for a tank I was treating for ich and it had 1 tsp kosher salt per gallon. He seemed pretty chipper this morning so if this salt is okay, I will continue using it when I change his water. I changed water again tonight and started him on Maracyn-2 which I have seen recommended on this list and elsewhere for dropsy. I did not add the salt until I hear back from someone one way or the other on it. However, after the week or so that I have been treating him, I don't hold much hope at this point, regardless of the cause of his disease. He has a fluval-1 established filter in with him and I put a air stone bar under the gravel so it does not create too much of a current for him in there but gives him some added oxygen. I have also given him some live plants to try to make him feel as comfortable as possible. He's had this set up for several days now.

Please let me know if all of this sounds good to you. About the water changes, I do throw in two mid week changes a month, if that helps. My normal schedule is 15 - 20 gallons each weekend, and 15 - 20 gallons every other Wednesday, but I don't really include those when posting. Just ask my better half... He thinks I care more about the fish than him and our furry 4 legged companions... >^..^<
Thanks,
Mary.
 
you evidently didn't read what i wrote. NEVER USE SALT (sodium chloride, a.k.a aquarium salt) for treatment of dropsy. this will KILL your fish in a very short time. the affected fish are already having a difficult time getting rid of salts due to kidney disfunction. this causes the blown up appearance and concurrent scale standing. the osmotic inbalance caused by addition of sodium to your tank water will make this condition far worse.

EPSOM SALT on the other hand, does not pass through the walls of the gut or gills and will extract water OUT of the surrounding tissue into the gut where it *may* be excreted.
 
liv2padl said:
you evidently didn't read what i wrote. NEVER USE SALT (sodium chloride, a.k.a aquarium salt) for treatment of dropsy. this will KILL your fish in a very short time. the affected fish are already having a difficult time getting rid of salts due to kidney disfunction. this causes the blown up appearance and concurrent scale standing. the osmotic inbalance caused by addition of sodium to your tank water will make this condition far worse.

EPSOM SALT on the other hand, does not pass through the walls of the gut or gills and will extract water OUT of the surrounding tissue into the gut where it *may* be excreted.
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Hi, thanks again. I did read what you wrote. And I even remember my chemistry. I guess I needed to have it burned into my brain, dropsy = salt bad! = epsom salt good! :) I care about my fish and want to see all of them thriving and living long and healthy lives. I am very perplexed by what is happening in this tank though. I know ich and fin rot and fungus. But this bacterial or parasitic stuff has thrown me for a loop. This morning I woke up to one of my bloodfin tetras looking completely emaciated and this is very sudden, within the last two days. His nice round belly is sunken, and he has taken on an overall bullet shape, his head looks extremely boney. And he is not with the other bloodfins. If you have any ideas please throw them at me, I'm going to be talking to my LFS in a while. My only new additions to the tank are two juvenile boes rainbowfish that I bought from a different fish shop a few weeks back. I'm truly at a loss.

Sorry I aggrevated you, and thanks so much for the advice. I'll be picking up epsom salt at lunch. The little patient is still with us and even ate a little this morning.
Take care,
Mary.
 
I recently lost a bloodfin with the symptoms you described. I did a lot of looking around o nthe net about it and the closest I could come was tuberculosis or flukes of some kind (although i never saw any parasites on the fish).

mine looked really skinny, his head looked too big, and he swam very sluggishly and stayed off by himself instead of swimming with the school. IF those are more or less the symptoms you may want to look up the tuberculosis section in the disease article in the articles corner here at AC. seems like it suggests dosing antibiotics like erythromiacin (bad spelling?) or a couple others.

That's just a thought. Other more experienced folks may know better what the problem is :)
 
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