Advice on new setup please

S

SnowHeart

AC Members
Aug 27, 2005
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Washington, DC
Earlier I had asked about whether I should try converting a 29 gallon into a saltwater tank with a 10 gallon sump/fuge. With input and advice from folks here, I've decided that would probably be a bad idea (feasible, but frustrating in its limitations). So, I'm now trying to figure out whether to do a 55 or 75 gallon tank (with the 29 gallon as a sump), and how much its going to cost to put it together. Thoughts and comments on the following are appreciated... :help:

I was originally thinking of a fish-only tank, but now after reading these forums and some books :read: , I'm convinced of the wisdom of using live rock as a natural means of filtration. I'm flexible on the question of invertebrates, but would like the idea of putting some in as a cleaner crew, and maybe a feather duster worm or two.

First question: 55g or 75g? As I'm putting live rock in the main tank as opposed to just the fuge, I think that argues in favor of a 75 gallon in order to get the increased "width" so that the fish have some room to swim, turn and play. Does that make sense, or will there be enough room in a 55g?

Second: To setup the plumbing to the sump, should I use an overflow box/weir or have the tank drilled? (It'd probably be a glass tank -- I don't like the risk of scratching acrylic.)

Third: Cost... I need to figure out what to budget for this project. I want to get the equipment right on the first try. I don't need everything to be state of the art with all the bells and whistles, but I don't want to do this on the cheap and wind up with a bunch of dead fishes and having to buy "upgrades" because what I bought at first wasn't enough. So, I'm figuring I need sand, live rock, protein skimmer, return pump, heater, and lighting. Also, I live on the second floor of a sturdy and well constructed house (when 2"x10"s really measured two inches by ten inches). However, because I'm on the second floor and because I want to put a sump into the system, I want a wood cabinet to house the sump and disperse the weight over as much of the floor as possible. I'm figuring that's going to run another $150.

Once I start adding all that together, I think I'm looking at around $1000, plus the cost for fishes, salt, supplies, plumbing, etc. Does that sound right?

Fourth: If I'm putting live rock in the main tank, should I put any in the fuge? What else should go in the fuge to help make a healthy system? :huh:

Finally: What am I missing or forgetting?

Thanks in advance,
Snowy :dog:
 
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Wise decisions there me thinks..

First Q - Deffinatly 75Gal, 29 as the sump..

Second Q - Plumbing is really preference, getting the tank drilled would be better and use weirs..

Third Q - About $1000 does sound about on the right track...If you can help it, dont skimp, you WILL regret it...thats from experience.

Forth Q - Live rock in the display tank..About 1 to 1.5Lbs per gallon. In the sump, you could have a dsb, some live rock rubble and some micro alage to remove phosphates and nitrates from the water as it filters through it..

All that needs to be in fuge / sump is the heater, skimmer and return pump..I dont think you have missed anything besides buying bags and bags of patience...he he he...

By all means, post the equipment models that you are intending to buy and get peoples opinions on them and we can help you along the way and hopefully get you off to a smooth start..

Niko
 
1) Definitely 75g

2) If 75g, have it drilled. Many 55g tanks use tempered glass, which makes them virtually undrillable.

3) Cost will vary depending on the type of rock you use, whether or not you go with 50% base rock instead of 100% live rock, how expensive of fish you buy, whether or not you buy your own RO/DI unit or just buy water from the LFS, etc... but a good rough estimate to get everything up, running, and your first couple of fish (when the time is right) is roughly $50 - $55 / gallon. For a 75g tank, that amounts to $3800+. For a 55g tank, it's $2800+. It quickly becomes a money pit. Try to shop around -- especially for live rock, as you'll probably be able to find someone locally that's tearing down a tank and selling off the rock, live stock, and probably the equipment, too.

4) It doesn't hurt to have more live rock in your sump or refugium. If you have 1 - 1.5 lbs / gallon in the main tank, it wouldn't be needed in the sump / refugium. You'll definitely want macro algae in the refugium to take up nutrients. This can also be bought cheaply or traded for from other reefkeepers in your area. Chaetomorpha (spaghetti / brillo pad macro) and caulurpa (comes in different varieties -- grape, razor, feather) are some of the more commonly used macro algaes.

I'd seriously suggest getting involved in your local reef club. You'll probably find people that'll willingly show you their set-ups and explain how it all works. Some of them will have extra equipment that they'll sell to you cheaply or in some cases, let you borrow. Most clubs have raffles / drawings, where a little bit of money invested can get you a pretty big return. For example, the club here had a raffle and I bought 6 tickets @ $5 a piece. I ended up winning an ASM G2 skimmer (which costs close to $200), 2 DIY rock kits (to make a total of 90 lbs of rock), and a $10 bottle of Tech I iodine. While not everyone considers themselves lucky, if you're not involved, you'll never even have that chance. Many club members also trade frags, sell them cheaply, or even give them away for free.
 
fsn77 said:
...but a good rough estimate to get everything up, running, and your first couple of fish (when the time is right) is roughly $50 - $55 / gallon. For a 75g tank, that amounts to $3800+. For a 55g tank, it's $2800+...
Click to expand...
:eek: Oh God... my spouse will kill me. Let's say it's a 75 gallon (I may as well do that)... how much do you figure LR and sand is going to cost for that?

As it happens, I'm in Boston and we have a decent Craigslist community and LR occasionally makes an appearance. I'd probably do a split of live rock and base rock if it made much of a cost difference (I'm comfortable going slowly). Maybe if someone posts a decent set of equipment I'll just buy the whole shabang, but I'm a bit of a control freak -- I like to know what the equipment has been through and how well it's been taken care of. (I also have a particular idea of how I want this to look and operate and so forth...)

Thanks all. This is helpful (as always).
 
atnixon said:
By all means, post the equipment models that you are intending to buy and get peoples opinions on them and we can help you along the way and hopefully get you off to a smooth start..
Click to expand...
Overflow box: CPR CS102
Protein Skimmer: Berlin Tubro Classic
Lighting: Current Orbit 48" Compact Flourescent w/ LED (is that too long a light bar for a 75 gallon? I'd like to put a canopy on top so I'd be nice to have things fit underneath it) (Also, there would be live rock).
Heater: 300 watt Titanium Heater (I like the idea of the remote temperature control, as I'm thinking of placing this in the refugium)
RO: Starter "Tap Water Filter"
Return pump: (Does it make a difference?)

I'm eventually thinking of getting a UV Sterilizer to go into the return line but probably not right away as I would only want to use it when there is a problem.

Not sure about the precise tank population yet, but I'm thinking of just a few aggressive fishes -- I'd really like to put a lionfish of some sort in there, train him to eat frozen foods if possible (as well as any other predators), and then introduce an invert cleaner crew and hope they don't get gobbled. Suggestions on this would be appreciated. If possible, I'd also like to put a couple of worms (such as feather dusters) in the tank provided the lionfish and others don't go after them.
 
I'm going for the same setup. I got my hands on a 29 gallon tank and wanted something bigger to set up a reef. I'm buying a 75 gallon tank soon and using the 29 gallon as a refugium/sump. I'm still piecing my setup together (protein skimmer, return pump, calcium reactor, etc) over time so the cost isn't such a burden. Look at the plumbing you like (drilled looks so clean and simple) and research, research, research. Once you find what you like, you'll be in the position to set up a nice tank with relatively few problems. Any luck on the stand? I'm still searching for a nice cabinet to hold the dispplay and slitt fit the sump underneath.
 
smkressel said:
I'm still piecing my setup together (protein skimmer, return pump, calcium reactor, etc) over time so the cost isn't such a burden.
Click to expand...
Ditto. When I realized how much this was going to be, I decided to just buy things as they appear on sale and try to slip it under the significant other's radar screen. :devil:
Any luck on the stand? I'm still searching for a nice cabinet to hold the dispplay and slitt fit the sump underneath.
Click to expand...
Not as yet. I suspect a stand rated for a 90 gallon tank should have enough room to hold (and hide) a 29 gallon sump and protein skimmer, but it's hard to find display models to look at.
 
Sorry for the shock with the total costs... it is a pricey hobby. But, it's better that you have an idea now and plan for it then get half way into it, run out of money, and give up out of frustration / lack of funds.

Live Rock: You can find it as cheap as $2 / lb. when someone's tearing down a tank. On the internet, sometimes you can get it for $3 - $4 / lb. with shipping costs. Some LFS charge as much as $11+ / lb. For a 75g tank, you'd want to shoot for 80 - 100 lbs., depending on the density of the rock you choose. You don't want so much that it causes issues with flow and leaves nowhere for your fish to swim. There's a lot of preference involved -- some like lots of rock, while others prefer slightly less.

Overflow: Look into a U-tube style overflow, like those at lifereef.com. They are more reliable and less complicated than the CPR overflows. While our U-tube overflow has only been running about a year without problems, I know of some that have run for 10+ years without ever loosing siphon / causing a flood.

RO starter: If you have harsh water and get 60g or less per filter out that, you'd be better off buying freshwater RO/DI from the LFS (most sell it for about $0.50 / g) until you can afford an actual RO/DI unit. When you're ready to buy a RO/DI unit, I highly recommend thefilterguys.biz -- great customer service, competitive prices, and can help tailor a unit to your specific water conditions. They're reefkeepers, too, so they actually use their own product.

Lighting: Since you want a canopy, you might be better off looking into a retrofit kit instead of a fixture (in terms of fit and cost). This, of course, depends on how handy you are, as some basic electrical knowledge and assembly would be required. The catch is that you may find yourself separately installing moonlights and fans as needed to help with cooling inside the canopy. Here's retrofit alternatives if you're interested:
Tek 4x54w T5 HO
Hamilton 4x55w Power Compact
These are merely suggestions and it's possible that you could find better prices by shopping around and / or purchasing the needed parts separately instead of buying them in a kit.

Heater: The heater you linked to is 10" long. If you divide up your sump, be sure to keep this in mind so that you'll have enough room for it to be submerged properly. Many sw enthusiasts highly recommend using 2 smaller heaters instead of a single large heater. The reasoning is that if the single large heater sticks in the "on" position and you aren't there to notice the temperature of your tank increasing, you could end up with a water temp high enough to cause the death to some or even most of your livestock. If you decided to use a temp controller (like one of these), a single large heater is much less likely to cause problems. While it's possible that both of the smaller heaters could go bad at the same time, it's a much less likely situation. Essentially, using two smaller heaters is a safety considering the crappy thermostats they use in aquarium heaters. It's a small added price to pay versus losing $1000 worth of fish / corals.

Let's cover something else... electrical safety. Please use a GFCI (such as one of these). I personally use the 24" 3 outlet version (they are also available locally at HD / Lowe's and probably cheaper there). If you ever have a problem with salt creep or water splashing onto your electrical wires / connections, it can help reduce the risk of electrical shock and a fire.

Post more ?s as you have them...
 
fsn, thanks for the feedback. The shock was... um... shocking, but necessary. I want to know the cost to do this right so I can plan for it, instead of getting sucker punched (and in lots of trouble at home) if I think it's only going to be $1000 and winds up 4 times that.

I've noticed some people suggest using play sand or argonite as a substrate, and then getting just some live sand to "seed" it (in addition to the live rock, obviously). Do you think that would work?

On the overflow, is it their "prefilters" what you're talking about? (Looks like the same purpose, just a different name.)

On the RO: I was wondering about that. I'm looking at a used 5-stage this weekend for $100. Was wondering if I might be able to get away with the "tap water filter" one though for topping off, but probably not a good idea. Are the multi-stage versions cheaper to operate over a longer period?

Lighting: Hrm... I'm somewhat technically minded, but not too much experience with electrical stuff. Could a kit like that be affixed to the canopy itself, you think?

Heater: I've heard mixed things. For instance, I'd also heard that having two heaters presents twice as much risk for a screw up. :) A 10" should definitely fit in the sump, and I'll try to figure out where I'm going to place it before securing the baffles.

Also, I forgot that I should get some powerheads. How many should I get for a 75g, and any suggestions as to a good quality brand?
 
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