Algaefix and Fish Kill

[tackful]

I used to use it all the time, no problem. Then, a few months ago, I unwisely dosed both it and Excel after a WC. Lost all my fish. Chalked it up to the simultaneous dosing of both products. But this morning, a few hours after a small WC and carefully dosing 3 ml of Algaefix in my 29 gal tank, I found 7 dead Rummynose and 2 more dead smaller tetras. I've had this bottle of Algaefix for at least 7 years, so I thought that maybe it had expired somehow, and not in a healthy manner.
Now I've found many, many posts online from people having similar experiences with the product. Does anyone have some insight or ideas about this?

 

[fishorama]

I remember your fish die off before I'm sorry to say. I will ask my chemist husband about it tomorrow, we're on the bedtime slope. He may not know, so many "treatments" are proprietary (they don't say what exactly it is). & of course he may not know, not his chem area. He hates when I ask these kinds of questions.

Isn't there a expiration date? I don't know if it might go bad & what may happen if it does.

I'm sorry you've had all the fish deaths. Maybe half dose without more info? It's not something I've ever used...

 

[tackful]

Thank you, appreciate it.

 

[fishorama]

Husband said he doesn't have a problem with it but none of the sites he looked at were much help. He also said its breakdown product in sunlight & low pH (~6) would be bad (very bad). He thinks it doesn't go bad very fast in the bottle even if a bit past expiration date (but probably not forever, lol). API uses a date code in the lot #, at least on Master Test kits.

Here's a Tom Barr thread on it: Algaefix, by API | Barr Report Forum - Aquarium Plants They stress changing lots of water before & after using for 3 days. It sounds to me like it's not meant to be used all the time...& it kills shrimp but not snails. If you haven't looked at Tom's site he has good info on things like plants, algae & ferts. He's a biologist (or something close) & actually tests things with various dosing etc in varying tanks. But he's also into more intense high tech tanks than I will ever be.

I think it might have been from using both Excel & Algaefix together at highish dosages? Yes! I asked about the combo & husband said EEK, no! In a general way the 2 classes of chemicals are bad news used together. Excel lowers pH (possibly to the danger zone? see above) & now I'm done with my chemistry lesson for today, lol. At least we didn't have structure drawings, that sometimes happens.

I don't know the dosing for Algaefix. Was that based on say, 24-25g of water at most in a 29g? Did you also dose Excel?

Again, I'm sorry for your fish losses, twice now.

 

[jake72]

A couple of things - i'm not sure of the ingrediant of algaefix but clearly the fishes don't find it healthy. I personally stopped using excel for two reasons - one is the primary ingrediant is posionous to fishes though in light dosage only moderate and second it was a useless product. For algae i found that if i could bring the aquarium into balance algae wasn't a big deal and if use chemicals to impact things the aquarium would never get into balance.
-
Given that i don't know the exact chemicals in algaefix i can't comment on why it killed your fishes - though it could have been direct (poison) or indirect (impact oxygen level or similar). I've gone the more pure route with my aquariums starting with ro water and for the most part everything works better - it helps that 95% of my fishes are softwater fishes so i don't have to start throwing in stuff to make the water harder of course runnynose are a softwater fish.

It odesnt' answer your question why the fishes died but my suggestion is to just avoid chemicals (including fertilizers) and focus on balance. I'd start with what kind of water you have (how hard it is) and what kind of light you have and what kind of fishes you use. I do use a little sachem prime when needed though my main water source passes through carbon to remove chlorine so i only use prime in the event of an emergency.

Unless injecting co2 people through in way too many chemicals and way too much lights for most plants - though some plants do require harder water than others. this picture shows an aquarium change over 8 months - note the lack of algae - i never use fertilizer or any chemicals in this plant other than a couple of root tabs (approx 3 every 6 to 7 months); the water is pure ro water so almost no minerals:






The point i'm trying to make is that if you are using products like excel or algaefix you have another problem that is not being addressed.

 

[tackful]

Husband said he doesn't have a problem with it but none of the sites he looked at were much help. He also said its breakdown product in sunlight & low pH (~6) would be bad (very bad). He thinks it doesn't go bad very fast in the bottle even if a bit past expiration date (but probably not forever, lol). API uses a date code in the lot #, at least on Master Test kits.

Here's a Tom Barr thread on it: Algaefix, by API | Barr Report Forum - Aquarium Plants They stress changing lots of water before & after using for 3 days. It sounds to me like it's not meant to be used all the time...& it kills shrimp but not snails. If you haven't looked at Tom's site he has good info on things like plants, algae & ferts. He's a biologist (or something close) & actually tests things with various dosing etc in varying tanks. But he's also into more intense high tech tanks than I will ever be.

I think it might have been from using both Excel & Algaefix together at highish dosages? Yes! I asked about the combo & husband said EEK, no! In a general way the 2 classes of chemicals are bad news used together. Excel lowers pH (possibly to the danger zone? see above) & now I'm done with my chemistry lesson for today, lol. At least we didn't have structure drawings, that sometimes happens.

I don't know the dosing for Algaefix. Was that based on say, 24-25g of water at most in a 29g? Did you also dose Excel?

Again, I'm sorry for your fish losses, twice now.

Once again, thank you. Had forgotten about the Excel when using Algaefix this time, dumb! Also, at present I have pressurized CO2, so my ph drops to about 6.4 during the photoperiod. I've always been good about 50% weekly water changes and filter cleaning every other week, but all of these recent algae problems began when I changed from CF to LED light. Had a difficult time understanding the programming directions and when I finally got it, I still needed time to understand how much light I was now putting into the tank. Still don't know if I'm close to finding the balance. Today did a 70% water change to bring N and P way down and see what happens now that the plants have only the root sticks to draw from. Should be informative.

 

[tackful]

A couple of things - i'm not sure of the ingrediant of algaefix but clearly the fishes don't find it healthy. I personally stopped using excel for two reasons - one is the primary ingrediant is posionous to fishes though in light dosage only moderate and second it was a useless product. For algae i found that if i could bring the aquarium into balance algae wasn't a big deal and if use chemicals to impact things the aquarium would never get into balance.
-
Given that i don't know the exact chemicals in algaefix i can't comment on why it killed your fishes - though it could have been direct (poison) or indirect (impact oxygen level or similar). I've gone the more pure route with my aquariums starting with ro water and for the most part everything works better - it helps that 95% of my fishes are softwater fishes so i don't have to start throwing in stuff to make the water harder of course runnynose are a softwater fish.

It odesnt' answer your question why the fishes died but my suggestion is to just avoid chemicals (including fertilizers) and focus on balance. I'd start with what kind of water you have (how hard it is) and what kind of light you have and what kind of fishes you use. I do use a little sachem prime when needed though my main water source passes through carbon to remove chlorine so i only use prime in the event of an emergency.

Unless injecting co2 people through in way too many chemicals and way too much lights for most plants - though some plants do require harder water than others. this picture shows an aquarium change over 8 months - note the lack of algae - i never use fertilizer or any chemicals in this plant other than a couple of root tabs (approx 3 every 6 to 7 months); the water is pure ro water so almost no minerals:


View attachment 233395


The point i'm trying to make is that if you are using products like excel or algaefix you have another problem that is not being addressed.

Very nice tank. I think this is the route I want to take. There is a fish store owner in San Francisco with over 100 tanks who rarely does water changes, instead relying on just root sticks, sand, and low light. As mentioned in my reply below to fishorama, I've done a large WC to reduce the N and P that I had been dosing. If my current LED settings is as low light as I suspect, that might help. It's quite a change from the EI method (which worked well for me) to a more natural approach, but that's what I want now. Got tired of having to trim and replant every month to make room for the fish.
Thanks for responding.

 

[fishorama]

I know who you mean in SF. I'm not buying into his no water changes. He sells mostly guppies & even in SF soft water, that won't work for many other fish. It'll get progressively harder. I hear he even makes people bring in a water sample before he'll sell them fish...& all his additives, whatever they may be. He does sometimes have tempting fish (not guppies) & he knows my carpool friend so no water sample for her.

I'm totally off stem plants these days (mosses too). Too fast growing for my more laid back style of tanks. I've only used excel for specific problems like BBA & cyano in 1 tank but in a limited way. It gets high window light at certain times of year & all heck may break out from extra light & higher temp.

Good luck!

 

[jake72]

A bit depends on the species of fish and the density. I personally do 50% weekly water changes using ro water but the fishes i'm keeping really want pure clean water. i hear arguments in all directions from very little infrequent water changes to very large water changes. I know wild caught discus i have are a barometer and go crazy if the water gets even a little polluted but a couple of my aquarium have bricks in them for fishes and it would take a sledge hammer for them to react to poor water quality.

I did read your long response - i will note that once my co2 canister ran out and the tank rapidly filled up with algae and it took me about 6 months to address - i find algae takes over when the plants go south and the plants couldn't support their massive growth without co2 - even when i got the canister refilled it still took a long time to address.

When i setup my 600 i built a reactor to run co2 and i ran co2 for the first week and then realized this wasn't going to work - if anything went wrong it would be a disaster in an aquarium of that size so i shut it down removed the reactor and decided i could just wait for things to fill in; this is a year later:

 

[fishorama]

I don't know about pH from co2, I've never used it. But some people that do say the pH drop from it isn't the same as a drop from other things, like old tank syndrome. I'm not sure why that might be different...

I have the equipment to do co2 but I chicken out every time I think about it. I don't have a dual stage regulator, just a "regular" 1. That end of tank co2 dump that can kill fish scares me too much.

jake, when I raised discus babies (domestic strain) I changed water every day ~50% when they were so called 2 inches (huh). & tank wipe downs almost that often. As they got to 4 inches I cut back both on feedings & WCs. In a way I'm not sorry to have to sell them before I had to move. That was a difficult year! No vacations, just lots of tank care. I know adult discus aren't quite so needy but wilds can be a lot of work to keep them healthy & happy. I've seen your pics of them, they & all your tanks look great!

So, no root tabs for your swords & crypts? I'm not a good fertilizer but I try with my no fish plant tank. No fish, no poo, no plant ferts.

Sorry tackful, it only sort of applies to your thread.