Ammonia Poisoning in Panda Cory?

[Doctorblue]

Hi, I have had fish before, but have been a mediocre fish owner at best. I'm trying really hard to be a good fish owner now though.

I have an already established 5 gallon, filtered, treated tank (Jungle ACE and Aquarisol). I took out the heater as it was overheating the tank. Temp is 78 degrees. It's not planted at this time, I took out the plants as they were starting to die off. It's been plantless for a few weeks. I am expecting java moss and java fern in the next few days. The tank has a small spotted raphael (approximately 3-4 inches, several years old, so I think it's full grown now, and a tiny mystery fish with her babies (1/2 inch tops...I would be interested to know what kind of fish that is as well, but not in this post. She's got two living babies right now, which is also a mystery). I added a Panda Cory to the tank. (Just one, as I didn't know they liked to school, was also an impulse purchase). Didn't quarantine the fish first. (Does everybody do that, or is that something people just say? If people really do that, I'll definitely do that in the future, as I have extra tanks around now.) I don't know what the water perimeters were prior to me adding the new fish. Well, the cory today is showing signs of ammonia poisoning (red sides, looks like bruising, heavy breathing). I've been testing the water everyday for the last three days and doing 20% daily water changes. The pH is 6.0, ammonia has been between 0.25-0.5 ppm, nitrite 0 ppm, nitrate 20-40 ppm. The water today, the day the fish is showing signs, is pH 6.0, ammonia 1.0 ppm, nitrite 0 ppm, and nitrate 80 ppm. Could that be high enough to kill the fish?

ETA: The fish just died as I was typing out my question, so I guess I should change the question to, did ammonia poisoning kill the fish? The nitrates are high, but what I've read has said nitrates aren't killers. Should I be worried about my other fish? Do you think the cory had a disease, or what might have killed it?

ETA2: I didn't test the pH until tonight. So, not sure if that is what it has been the whole time. Should I add any pH changers? I will await responses from more experienced fish keepers before adding anything to the water.

 

[Roan Art]

We need to know what the parameters of your source water is. Would you please take a cup of water, let it sit out overnight, and test it for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrates in the morning? Post here please.

We also need to know the following:

1. how long this tank has actually been running?
2. when was the last time you did a water change and how much did you change out?
3. what is your normal water change routine: how much and how often?

As for the tank: it is very overstocked, which could account for the high ammonia readings if you are not keeping up with water changes. A 3-4" cat is too big for that tank, plus you have other fish and the cory.

Also, please, please stop using AquariSol. I contains copper and copper is toxic to fish. You *cannot* remove copper as it will bind on the molecular level with your silicone, decorations, filter -- everything. Every time you use that stuff you are building up the copper content of the tank. Copper poisoning can resemble ammonia poisoning. Please bear that in mind, however I don't think that is the problem here.

Your tank seems to be recycling and the low pH indicates you may have had a pH crash. Again, we need to know the tap water parameters.

Roan

 

[Doctorblue]

I'll test my source water and let you know.

This tank has been running for 1.5 years. However, I moved and broke down the tank in March. So, it's been running at it's current state since March.

Last time I did a water change was Thursday (day before fish died). I was doing daily 20% water changes after adding the new fish. I am going to be doing another one tonight (Friday). I changed out approximately 20% each time.

My normal water change is very bad. As I said, I was a bad fish owner and I'm trying to do better. I will in the future try to do water changes every week, 10-20%. Previously I was doing water changes whenever I remembered (every couple of months or so). Mostly I was just adding water when it started evaporating, as opposed to actually changing the water. I think prior to adding the new fish that I had only done a water change twice since I moved in. So, that would be every couple of months or so.

May I ask why you think it is overstocked? Is the rule not 1" per gallon of adult size? If that rule is correct, than that would be 3"+1.5"+0.5"+0.5"+0.5"=6". That is overstocked, but why use the word "very". Why would this tank be too small for the raphael? He mostly stays in his cave and doesn't eat very much. Please understand that I am not trying to be rude. I lurked the day before I posted, and your name came up as a knowledgable fishkeeper. I am asking for knowledge, not to be defensive. If that rule is incorrect, what is a guideline to use as far as stocking the tank?

What do you think about the stocking of my other tanks?

Interesting about the Aquarisol. Do you know why it's promoted so much as being the wonder treatment? I had heard so many good things about it, how if you use it you will never have a parasite problem, etc. That it should be a standard in every fishkeepers setup, etc.

Thank you for responding.

 

[Roan Art]

I'll test my source water and let you know.

This tank has been running for 1.5 years. However, I moved and broke down the tank in March. So, it's been running at it's current state since March.

Last time I did a water change was Thursday (day before fish died). I was doing daily 20% water changes after adding the new fish. I am going to be doing another one tonight (Friday). I changed out approximately 20% each time.

My normal water change is very bad. As I said, I was a bad fish owner and I'm trying to do better. I will in the future try to do water changes every week, 10-20%. Previously I was doing water changes whenever I remembered (every couple of months or so). Mostly I was just adding water when it started evaporating, as opposed to actually changing the water. I think prior to adding the new fish that I had only done a water change twice since I moved in. So, that would be every couple of months or so.

Okay, this explains a lot. I'm not ragging on you, especially since you have said you want to turn over a new leaf, but your tank sounds like it's suffering from OTS -- Old Tank Syndrom.

OTS is what happens to tanks that receive not enough/very little/no water changes. It can happen over the course of a year or years or many years.

When people test the water in their tanks, many test for the basic four: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH. Nitrate is the end product of the natural processes in the tank and can only be removed (viably!) by plants or water changes. A lot of people use nitrate as an indication of when to change their water, and a lot of people just don't test for it, and a lot of people just don't use a "marker" and change water when they get around to it or not at all.

Now, the problem is that nitrate is not the only product that is produced at the end of the cycle -- which is a continuous loop. It never stops unless something interfers with it -- there are also DOC (Dissolved Organic Compounds) produced and we have no way of testing these in the hobby. As a tank gets older and older, more DOC are produced and the water gets "thicker". Fish use a biological process called osmoregularity to govern how their bodies react to changing water conditions (osmotic pressure). The more the DOC collect in the water, the more pressure is applied to their bodies. What happens is that the more their bodies change to adapt to this ever-increasing "Jello-like" water, the harder it is for the fish to adapt to anything else.

Okay, so we have a tank, yours, that hasn't had a decent water change schedule in eons. The DOC are VERY high in that water, but your fish are used to it . . .

(by the way it is VERY fortunate that you started changing your habits when you did because eventually and, judging by the death of the cory, it would have been SOON -- your current fish would have started dying. Your cat would have been the first to go). . .

and you introduce the cory cat and it dies, probably very quickly. Why? Because the tank water is so high in DOC that it could not biologically adjust its body fast enough to compensate. It's called "osmotic shock". For a visual idea, and idea only since they are not exactly the same, the reverse of what would happen if you took a sea-deep fish and magically and instantaneously transported it to the surface. It wouldn't be able to acclimate to the sudden change in osmotic pressure and would die. Instantly.

Here's a really good article on OTS:

http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/small/ots.html

The GOOD thing is that you are already working on correcting the situation and I suggest that you just continue on your present course and use your nitrates as a guideline as to where you are. Once you get those nitrates down to 0 or close to it, you should be able to introduce a new fish. Whatever you do, do not start doing massive water changes. Remember osmotic shock -- don't shock your fish. Slow and easy does it. You can do, since you've already started 20% a day until the nitrates are down, then TRY to keep a schedule of at least 25%, but 50% is better, a week.

May I ask why you think it is overstocked? Is the rule not 1" per gallon of adult size? If that rule is correct, than that would be 3"+1.5"+0.5"+0.5"+0.5"=6". That is overstocked, but why use the word "very".

No, the rule is not an ich per gallon. There is no mathematical rule that works for stocking fish tanks. There are too many variables for any "rule" to work. You have to take into account the activity level of the fish, whether it is a schooling fish or solitary, aggression, social interaction, water column preference, and mass, just to name a few.

Why would this tank be too small for the raphael? He mostly stays in his cave and doesn't eat very much. Please understand that I am not trying to be rude.

Fish need room to swim, turn around and do other fishy things. He probably doesn't come out because there's no place to go. Can you imagine yourself stuck in a stalled elevator with eight other people? Sure, you have room to turn around or lie down, but think of:

a) how cramped you would feel with no personal space
b) how thick the air gets so quickly
c) how badly you want OUT of there after a short period of time

Some people in that type of situation would start pacing. Some would get aggressive (grumpy, snippy, angry) and take it out on the others. Others would just try to ignore the problem and make the best of it. Still others would seek a corner and just stay there.

Now think of the same situation, but with just one other person. Not quite so bad, but still bad. Remember: your fish is 3" and your tank isn't that much bigger than that. He's a cat so he likes to roam around the bottom and doesn't really care how much space is above him. Problem is, he has no space to move around much. Just like two people in an elevator.

If that rule is incorrect, what is a guideline to use as far as stocking the tank?

Stocking a tank well isn't easy at all because there as as many different kinds of fish as there are different personality and physical types of people -- hrm, probably more.

IMO the best way to stock an existing tank is to pick ONE fish and build your tank around that fish. Read all you can about that fish's species. Is it solitary? It'll probably need caves and lots of hiding places. Timid? See solitary + dither fish. Aggressive? Watch the tank mates or keep it alone. Schooling? It'll need at least 6 others of the exact same species.

Then take a good look at your tank. Is it big enough for them (or at least six of them if they are schooling) to spend their whole lives in? If no, then either get a bigger tank or pick a different fish.

If you want to have tank mates, start reading and researching on each type of fish you want to keep and make sure they will all get along. You don't *have* to fill the tank or every layer of the tank. It's really not necessary. Stock lightly! Remember, you can always add more fish later, but if you overstock you can run into some really nasty problems with aggression and water chemistry.

What do you think about the stocking of my other tanks?

To be quite honest, they are all over stocked, but the worst one is the 2.5g betta with the platies. I wouldn't even put one platy in a 2.5g tank, let alone two of them and a betta.

Interesting about the Aquarisol. Do you know why it's promoted so much as being the wonder treatment? I had heard so many good things about it, how if you use it you will never have a parasite problem, etc. That it should be a standard in every fishkeepers setup, etc.

To make money for the manufacturer, that's about it.

Here's a post I made about AquariSol here on several occasions:

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=591962&postcount=10

Thing is, even if it didn't have copper in it and was completely "safe", if you QT new fish why would you even *need* it? No one needs to use a "preventative". If you keep your fish healthy, stress free, and QT all new ones, the only thing you need is a good water change and maintenance routine.

And to answer your other question, yes, a lot of us DO QT our new fish. I have a 10g as a QT and hospital tank that runs all the time with a snail or two in it.

HTH

Roan

 

[Roan Art]

As an aside to my above post, if and when you get the tank back in order and decide to add a new fish:

If that new fish dies in a manner similar to the cory cat, then I would definitely then conclude copper poisoning.

You DO have OTS, but it is possible that that, AND the copper, may have caued the cory's death.

Just be aware of this as you get your tank water chemistry back to the source water chemistry.

Roan

 

[Doctorblue]

Forgot to post my source water stats:
pH: 6.4
Ammonia: 0.25-0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm

Since my source water already has ammonia in it, should I be treating it with something different? I bought some Prime on Saturday. I wasn't sure about the Ammo Lock since it said it would still give you positive readings on the test kit.