Angelfish Aggression

[Denj]

I'm looking for input from those of you that either keep (or have kept) or breed (or have bred) Angelfish (Pterophyllum Scalare NOT Altum).

I've kept angelfish in planted show tanks in the past. Nothing smaller than a 55g tank (anywhere between 55g - 90g) & always in odd numbers (3,5, 7 etc...). I've never attempted to breed them. I've always obtained my angelfish as juveniles & have introduced them into established tanks with lots of plants & hiding places, the only other residents in these tanks being a small school of rummy nose or neon tetras & a few cory cats. I've always kept my angelfish well feed (pellets, blood worms, brine shrimp, gammarus etc. - frozen & freeze dried) to assuage their impulse to go after their smaller tank mates.

This set up has worked fine for me in the past. I've used this set up 3 times previously, each with different sets of Angelfish & never has it been a problem.... until now.

Recently I purchased 5 juvenile Angelfish (Koi Veil Tails with body sizes about the size of a quarter) & introduced them into a 90g tank which was already housing a school of 7 rummy nose tetras, 9 neon tetras, & 4 green emerald cory cats.

During the first week of having introduced the 5 Angelfish into the 90g everything was pretty "quiet". Then suddenly two of the Angelfish went belly up. One of them happened to be the "weakest" looking angelfish out of the group so that wasn't a shocker but the other one was quite fit. Upon further inspection I spotted a missing eye, torn fins & I knew they had been killed. Unfortunately I hadn't caught the culprit in action because I was at work at the time.

Three days had passed and the remaining 3 Angelfish seemed to be getting along well enough so I left them in the 90g. Then the weekend came, it was a 3 day weekend & I was away for most of it. When I got back home on Monday, 2 more angels where dead along with 6 - 7 neon tetras, 4 rummy nose tetras, & 2 of the corys. It was the kind of body count you'd see in a bad 80's action flick!!! I was horrified to say the least :eek3:!!!

My question is: Have any of you ever experienced this level of aggression from your angelfish in similar set ups?

I could see if a pair of them had "paired off", had laid eggs & they were protecting them. BUT 1.) These guys were juveniles 2.) I didn't notice any of them "pairing off" 3.) I didn't notice any clutches of eggs & 4.) After all of the carnage was done it wasn't a pair that was left... it was just one single ornery angelfish with a body the size of a quarter.

I'm taken back because I've used similar set ups in the past & have never once had a problem. I'm just wondering if success using these kinds of set ups is rare & I've gotten really lucky up until now OR is it the opposite & I was just really "unlucky" this one time. I know they are not the ideal "community" fish as they are inaccurately labeled by most of the LFS I've been too but I thought that as long as you didn't house them with other territorial/aggressive types then you were OK.

Also this is the first time I've had the Koi Veil Tail variety so I don't know if that has something to do with it.

Looking forward to your responses.

 

[Rbishop]

Unless there is some issue with your tank water or a possible CO2 problem, if you are using it, I would more likely write it off to bad stock.

 

[GuppyGirl1230]

Unless there is some issue with your tank water or a possible CO2 problem, if you are using it, I would more likely write it off to bad stock.

:iagree:

Maribeth

 

[DGC]

I had an agro angel, i still have him, but he is not so agro after all. My wife was sick of him chasing the other one and picking on her baby paradise so she pulled him out the tank and held him in the net for about 30 seconds, this happened twice and now he is a little angel.

 

[tanker]

It may not have been the angel. A fish may have just died and caused an ammonia spike which kill another fish which raised the ammonia even higher....ect.

Then the angel may have just pecked at the dead fish. Remember---Dead fish=food.

 

[Denj]

It may not have been the angel. A fish may have just died and caused an ammonia spike which kill another fish which raised the ammonia even higher....ect.

Then the angel may have just pecked at the dead fish. Remember---Dead fish=food.

Thanks tanker, you make a very good point. I hadn't thought about this initially because I take my water quality for granted because it's usually fine (I keep up with regular maintenance). But I did test my water during all of this (just as regular up keep) & my water parameters were fine "unfortunately". I say unfortunately, because if they weren't fine then at least I'd have an explanation.

In addition, after all of this happened I've watched the remaining angel closely & it continued to go after the remaining tetras & even the corys (which is weird because the corys are always way down on the bottom). I've since had to put it in a separate 20g tank (an old hospital tank).

Seeing as my water parameters were/are fine & I've used CO2 before (& still do) with no ill effects I'm just going to have to write it off as bad stock for now like Rbishop had mentioned.

Thanks a lot to ALL of you for your input. I truly appreciate it.

 

[Denj]

I had an agro angel, i still have him, but he is not so agro after all. My wife was sick of him chasing the other one and picking on her baby paradise so she pulled him out the tank and held him in the net for about 30 seconds, this happened twice and now he is a little angel.

LOL :lol:... Are you saying your wife gave you're angelfish a "TIME OUT!"??

I thought that only worked with kids...

 

[colleen0309]

Funny you should mention nasty angels. I just posted earlier this week about my angel. For 5 years him and his tankmate got along fine then one day he decided to try and kill him and wouldn't stop. I had to condem him to the Q tank. I'm going to try to reintroduce him into the big tank again soon. Just got a bug up his*&%*, I guess.

 

[Denj]

Yeah that is weird colleen. 5 years as tank mates & then BOOM killer mode.

At least my culprit was a new addition to the tank but to go aggressive after 5 years of tranquility is odd. Did you happen to add any other fish (besides his tank mate(s) obviously) into the tank that might have encroached on your Angels territory?? I could see a scenario like that setting off aggression.

 

[RiVerfishgirl]

Some angelfish can be aggressive, but I find it hard to believe that that much carnage would have happened to so many fish within a short amount of time.

I think the more likely culprit is some kind of water quality issue. Most likely the fish you saw torn up had been picked on by the cories (they will consume corpses, even when not fully dead, QUICK) or other fish after they became ill or died.

I'm thinking since you were gone for 3 days you either had an ammonia spike that went unnoticed, or some kind of other water quality issues.

Test your pH, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates. It may not show as being out of whack now though. I would, however, test your pH a couple of times a day for the next few days, especially at night, and especially since you have plants, and see if it's fluctuating. Also test your kH, make sure you have sufficient buffering to prevent pH swings.
Go look at your fish in the middle of the night, perhaps, and see if you see any gasping or anything that would indicate a problem, such as insufficient oxygen levels. (Not sure how many plants, but if planted heavily you could be having issues during the night cycle).
I'm by no means an expert on planted tanks (never bothered with them), and you didn't mention exactly how your planted tank is setup, but as I understand it if your water isn't being sufficiently oxygenated at night when your plants are consuming more oxygen, you can actually oxygen starve your fish.

(Anyone that does know more about planted tanks, feel free to correct any errors in my post, as I'm sure I made some.)