bio-spira with ammonia level 4

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sd2006

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Jun 7, 2006
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here's the story:

i have a 40 gallon tank, penguin 350 with bio-wheel and I conditioned the water with ammo-lock initially -> crystal clear water for now. At this point, I went the fishless cycling process by adding food flakes (by nutrafin) to get the ammonia kick started. A few days later, the water becomes milky white (bacteria bloom?). I test with aquarium pharma's master test kit and shows the following:

ammonia = 4.0
nitrats = 0
nitrites = 0
pH = 7.2

I plan on re-testing the water tomorrow to see if the ammonia levels are lower. However, I've now decided to use bio-spira and have it in hand. HOwever, the water was conditioned with ammo-lock. since it's been about a week since the water was conditioned with ammo-lock, would it even be relevant now? Would the ammo-lock still be prevalent and work against the bacteria?

My real question is, should I just put the bio-spira and 4 goldfish fantails in the tank despite the high ammonia reading of 4? Or should I just keep changing 20% of the water until the ammonia level is around 0-2ppm and THEN add the bio-spira and goldfish? I figured at a level of 4, the bacteria would greatly welcome the high amount of ammonia?

also, where would you recommend putting the bio-spira? bio-wheel? or just into the tank water?

any ideas would be great.
 
I woudln't... 2 reason

1 - A level of 4 is deadly
2 - Bio Spira needs to be put in when you get your fish. From what I've read and heard, it doesn't handle massive ammouts of ammonia well.


I see two options for you

1 - Continue Fishless
2- Do a full water change to get ammonia down as far as you can and use Bio Spira

Note on #2. Our TAPWATER is .5 anmmonia, so it's impossible for me below that, short of using some sort of nuetralizer... which you do NOT want to do if you use Bio Spira. It needs ammonia for food!

I'm cylcing a 60 right now with 12 fish and using 3oz bag of Bio Spira(your best best deal, local place sells 1oz for 10.99, or 3 or 20.99.) I would probably use the whole bag, but you could use half, and seal the second half in fridge and add the rest when nitrites appear... or before that.

You don't need to cycle with 4 fantails(I feel this is on the low side, I've had trouble with bioload with 2 small fantails in a 12g). If you're going to keep tropical fish, use tropical fish(any fish that's not delicate). And with tank that size with Bio Spira, I would use 7-9 fish. (I've got 12 in my 60)

Tank cycling is important, but people go overboard with it. You're not stuck to Dannios or Goldfish, just use common sense, and don't put TOO many fish in. There is NO reason to stare at nothing for 2-3 weeks. If the ammonia spikes, do a 10% water change(ONLY if needed during cycle) and keep watching... maybe keep a few plants in there to keep the ammonia spikes down.

I wouldn't go over 25% of the tank population, and I wouldn't put in TOO much of an investment in your fish until the tank is done cylcing. But don't use fish you don't want.
 
I woudln't... 2 reason

1 - A level of 4 is deadly
2 - Bio Spira needs to be put in when you get your fish. From what I've read and heard, it doesn't handle massive ammouts of ammonia well.
Click to expand...

Yea, that's the reason I asked. As I understood it, any ammonia level above 0 is deadly.

1 - Continue Fishless
2- Do a full water change to get ammonia down as far as you can and use Bio Spira
Click to expand...

I figured since there are no fish in the tank at this point in time, that the supply of ammonia would be fine just to add the bio-spira in there, have the bacteria nitrification step begin, and then add some fish after the ammonia levels get low.

Note on #2. Our TAPWATER is .5 anmmonia, so it's impossible for me below that, short of using some sort of nuetralizer... which you do NOT want to do if you use Bio Spira. It needs ammonia for food!
Click to expand...

I've checked my tap water with the following results: 0 ammonia/nitrites, 0 nitrates, pH 7.2.

You don't need to cycle with 4 fantails(I feel this is on the low side, I've had trouble with bioload with 2 small fantails in a 12g). If you're going to keep tropical fish, use tropical fish(any fish that's not delicate). And with tank that size with Bio Spira, I would use 7-9 fish. (I've got 12 in my 60)
Click to expand...

Well, my initial plan was to cycle fishless, so I added some flake foods. However, two days later, the entire tank got cloudy (bacterial bloom? milky white appearance). At this point is when the water tested for ammonia level 4, nitrites/nitrates 0, and pH 7.2. I changed the water yesterday, approximately 40% and just checked a this morning, but it's still milky white cloudy.

I guess what I'm going to do is to do water changes to get the ammonia level down to at least 2ppm? or is 1ppm better? and then go ahead and add the Bio-spira along with the full bio-load of 4 fantails? (per 10 gallon tank water).
 
Just for the sake of simplicity, I would switch to a basic water dechlorinator--ie. not Ammo Lock. Chris Cow (early pioneer of fishless cycling with ammonia) advises against using it while cycling, some users of Bio Spira also advise against it.

When FISHLESS cycling with ammonia people usually start with an ammonia dosing to reach 5 ppm (not more) and when you begin to see nitrites you cut back your ammonia source by about half so that ammonia reads 2-3 ppm. You'd probably be OK continuing your cycle at 2-3 ppm. Not sure why you're using food instead of ammonia, but the goal with food would likely be the same (although it will take longer because fish food takes a day or 2 to decompose, therefore it's harder to control the outcome). HOWEVER--if you plan on introducing fish, you don't want to be seeing any ammonia or nitrites in the tank at all. The fish themselves will produce all the ammonia Bio Spira needs.

I wouldn't put my fish into an uncycled, milky-white aquarium, personally. Since you don't fully understand the source of the cloudiness, I would want to get to the bottom of that before adding live inhabitants. Hopefully someone with experience with this situation can advise on the cause/cure. Sorry I can't be more help on this issue.

PS. 4 fantails might be too many for the size of your tank, since they grow up to 6 inches-- I believe they require 15-20 gallons each.
 
I would want to start fresh.. seriously.. if you're going to use Bio Spira, drain the whole thing and start from scratch. You'll increase your odds of sucess dramatically. There is nothing to be gained by not doing this... so long as you're sure that you won't do fishless.
 
I have never used Ammo-Lock, I do however have Amquel which is a similar product which is for emergency use only. The label n Amquel clearly states its use will render the common Nessler reagent based ammonia test kits useless- ie give false readings. They say to get a Salycilate reaganet based kit if you need to test when using the product.

I suggest you read the entire label info etc on your Ammo-lock as I would bet this is the same for them.
 
Akysten said:
I would want to start fresh.. seriously.. if you're going to use Bio Spira, drain the whole thing and start from scratch. You'll increase your odds of sucess dramatically. There is nothing to be gained by not doing this... so long as you're sure that you won't do fishless.
Click to expand...

thanks for the info. you're right. I'm going to go ahead and tear it down and start from scratch and add the bio-spira and fish. nothing to lose at this point. I'll get some prime and condition the water, let it run for a few days and then put in the bio-spira.

one last question, would one recommend putting the bio-spira into the tank water and let it establish itself? Or should I put it onto the bio-wheels and filter media? either way would be fine right?

thanks to all who have given their insight into this. I appreciate it.
 
Just follow the directions on the Bio Spira package EXACTLY.

Do not put anything in your tank other than Prime or Marineland's Bio Safe to condition the water.

Do not change the water for at least 48 hours.

Roan
 
There are dud packets of Bio-Spira out there (either the LFS doesn't keep it right or whatever). The best thing to do is to get your ammonia levels up a little (like .5ppm) with food, add the Bio-Spira and see if it works. If you got a live bag and you shook it up enough, you should see the ammonia clear up fast. At that point you can add your fish. If you did get a dud bag then you either have a fishless cycle again, or you can go ahead and add fish anyway once you have treated any remaining ammonia and just deal with a fishy cycle for the next month. Most everyone reccommends against a fishy cycle, but if you are willing to work way hard at it and use a lot of Prime, you can get it done with decently low stress on the fish.

One trick that I stumbled into is to start with a larger tank or other container than you actually want and do a fishy cycle there for a couple weeks with regular water changes, then move your fish into a smaller tank using the same filter and some of the gravel from the original tank. The bacteria that have been developing with the larger water volume in the big tank will be able to handle the smaller tank a lot better. I discovered this when I was doing a fishy cycle on my 10 gallon (less fish than listed below). I left for a month and had someone else take care of the tank. Fearing that a 10 gallon in the tail end of a fishy cycle would be too much for the person to take care of, I moved everyone over to a 5 gallon rubbermaid container for the month I was gone (this was 3 fish and some ghost shrimp). I expected the little tank to have an ammonia spike, but amazingly it stayed steady and the ammonia and nitrites stayed at basically nil the entire time I was gone. I have no idea if this is a practical solution for anyone else, but it worked well for me. I had the person add ammonia to the 10 gallon to keep the cycle going in there, and when I got back that tank was completely cycled and I was able to move everyone back.
 
The white cloudyness is 'new tank syndrome' and is a bacterial bloom. It will happen to any new tank and will go away on its own - it causes no problems to fish.
:fairy:
Sue
 
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