Can NitrItes go down before Ammo Spike ends.

[jaysono]

I'm sorta restating this portion of my question based on zero response from another thread of mine regarding a stalled cycle.

It seems as if I may have turned a corner, and perhaps my ammonia spike is finally diminishing with no additional help from me. It'll be a few more days before I am positive, but after a grueling Ammospike that seemed to last almost 2 weeks my levels are fianlly readable and dropping.

I was expecting to see Nitrites go up though in response to Ammonia going down, however, this did not happen.

My Nitrites that have been reading about 0.25ppm since day one, have dropped somewhere around to 0.15-0.25ppm. I never had a "spike" per-se and have been battling the ammonia issue.

Can Nitrites go down, or skip the spike on an extended Ammonia spike?

 

[JSchmidt]

I'm not sure I'd call two weeks an 'extended' ammonia spike... sounds pretty much within normal limits to me.

The only way you could skip the nitrite spike is if the nitrite-eating bacteria established themselves at the same time the ammonia eaters did. That generally only happens when you do some significant seeding with filter media, cultured gravel, etc.

The reason is pretty simple... if the ammonia eaters aren't established, there generally isn't much for the nitrite eaters to consume. If you've been reading .25 ppm nitrites since the beginning, you must either have innoculated the tank with bacteria (in which case a fledgling population of nitrite-eaters COULD have been establishing itself) or your test kit is suspect. If ammonia spiked that much, I personally would be expecting a nitrite spike as well.

In these cases, the best procedures are diligent testing and making sure your nitrite test is accurate. You might ask your LFS to test a sample to see what results they get.

HTH,
Jim

 

[anonapersona]

Plants?

If the ammonia was being consumed by plants, then the nitrite level could be very small, maybe undetectable. I've seen posts where people had seen no spikes of any sort with a planted tank, and where there had been spikes of normal size, and where there was no ammonia spike but a normall large nitrite spike.

I think it depends on when the plants are actively using the ammonia. If the plants are well established before the fish are added, then all ammonia could be counsumed before any is processed into nitrite -- no spike of either. If the plants are in shock and there are fish present making ammonia, then the ammonia ought to rise until the plants get in gear to process it -- variable spike of ammonia, little or no nitrite. If the plants take a long time to begin processing the ammonia, then some will be turned to nitrite and that is left for bacteria to process for the plants do not consume nitrite -- some ammonia spike but short-lived, some nitrite spike.

Now, you didn't mention plants, and so I could be way off base on that.

 

[JSchmidt]

Don't plants process ammonia preferentially to nitrite? If the plants were processing anything at all, I thought they would prefer ammonia?

Jim

 

[jaysono]

Well, my tank has no living plants. Just the plastic variety

 

[daveedka]

Don't plants process ammonia preferentially to nitrite? If the plants were processing anything at all, I thought they would prefer ammonia?

I'm no expert on plants, but have been doing a lot of research. If I understand things correctly, plants won't process nitrite (or at least process very little if any), they prefer ammonio, and will process nitrAte. In a planted tank, the ammonia is used up as it is produced, and therefore there is little or no nitrite (by-product of ammonia consumption) I have recently tried a tank with heavy plants, and live filter media, and then added a bunch of fish at once. The ammonia has never been at a readable level, nitrite has never gone above .025 ppm, and nitrates don't show up at all. The fact that I see very little nitrite, and no nitrates leads me to believe that the ammonia is being consummed almost entirely by the plants. hopefully Happychem or RTR will jump in if I mis-stated anything.

As far as Jaysono goes, be patient. I think you are fine with things. and the process will wrap itself up soon.

Just the plastic variety

They don't eat a lot, but they don't wilt or die either :laugh:

Also, I have seen tanks cycle without a significant Nitrite spike, so it isn't unheard of. Especially with the constant water changes, the nitrite may have started slow and just not been detected, and the bacteria caught up with it. This isn't usually the case, and I've seen it more often with extremely light bio-loads, but it isn't an impossibility. I would definately take a sample to the lfs as was reccomended and have them cross verify your testing. And keep a solid eye on it otherwise.

 

[happychem]

Looks all right to me...

As for your stalled cycle, just be patient. It is kinda surprising that NO2 hasn't spiked, or increased in any way. Don't worry about the 'decrease' too much. I'm not convinced it's significant, you would expect to see a larger magnitude of change.

But...
Have you measured NO3 at all? That would be a pretty safe indicator of nitrification. If you did seed (did you?) with a decent stock, then you may have never seen any NO2. Although you probably wouldn't have seen a prolonged ammonia spike either. But again, NO3 testing would confirm this...

 

[carpguy]

I think plants prefer ammonia, don't use nitrites, do use nitrates. Plastic, not so much.

As for the other part…

The ammonia test measures the output from the fish (and whatever may be decomposing nearby). Water changes and adjustment to inputs (feeding, for instance) can be used to adjust this level.

The nitrite test measures the output from the ammonia-eaters. Water changes and adjustment to inputs (ammonia levels) can be used to adjust this level. Nitrite bonds to the fishes hemoglobin and reduces the capacity of their blood to carry oxygen. A little salt can help with this.

The nitrate test measures the output from the nitrite eaters. Under normal circumstances nothing eats the Nitrates and they're removed by water changes.

Tapwater, as a rule (a federal one) shouldn't have ammonia or nitrites: these should be 0 on day one. The water can and probably does have a certain amount of nitrate. You can take a baseline of this from the tap.

The ammonia should build up and then start to decline. That's a given.

The bacteria that eat the nitrites are thought to be sensitive to ammonia. So if the ammonia levels get too high they can't start to establish themselves until after the ammonia spike. And since the ammo-eaters are out in full force and the nitrite-eaters are just starting to set up camp, you wind up with a Nitrite spike.

But you don't have to have one. If you keep the ammonia levels down, the nitrite-eaters should settle down in tandem and you won't really see a spike. So its possible to skip it. But is that whats happening? It could also be water changes or moderation of the feeding levels or all three working together.

The ammonia has to be going somewhere and so does the nitrite. You'll know that the nitrite-eaters have set up camp when you see the nitrate levels rise. Thats really the more important level at this stage… nitrAte, ambient and current.

 

[jaysono]

Thanks all for the good info today. Sounds encouraging.

I'll be more convinced that my Ammonia spike is on teh down swing tomorrow when I test in the am. The last two days it appears to have gone down, but I think results tommorow will be more convincing.

In answer to HappyChem's question about seeding: No I didn't seed at all. I have no local or available friends to get bacteria from, and I really wouldn't trust the waters from PetSmart or PetCo.

The only other lfs in the area isn't even a lfs. Takes me about 30 minutes to get there and the last time I was there, I even offered to pay for some used gravel/squeezing/whatever and I was deflected. They may have had a bad experience with anotehr customer and don't want to repeat it, or held liable in case things went hay-wire.

Today was the first time I noted that the Nitrites had reduced below 0.25ppm. I don't check this out every day, but out of the dozen times I have checked since tank inception, the level was down. I'll re-do in the am as well to confirm.

Nitrates are a different story. I got the Nitrate test kit only 2 weeks ago, and the few times I checked my readings were only 5.0ppm. Just yesterday, it appeared to climb up slighlty as indicated by a slightly darker color, but hadn't reached the next increment listed as 10. If I were to make a wild guess, maybe it is around 6.0 or 7.0. But it could be my pre-coffee eyes.

 

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by carpguy


Tapwater, as a rule (a federal one) shouldn't have ammonia or nitrites: these should be 0 on day one. The water can and probably does have a certain amount of nitrate. You can take a baseline of this from the tap.

Don't forget that water with chloramine will test positive for ammonia. It often contains up to 1 ppm ammonia, sometimes a bit more.

Given the ongoing ammonia spike and the lack of a jump in nitrates, I'd be surprised if there is an established colony of nitrite-eaters. If that colony had somehow grown while the ammonia-eaters were establishing themselves, I think we'd see more nitrates.

This is very interesting... make sure you keep us posted, jasono!

Jim