Chloramine poisoning?

R

roghib

AC Members
Oct 26, 2006
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Central Oregon
What are the symptoms?

Currently I am losing fish at an alarming rate and am at a loss as to what to do.

I have a 90g that was cycled without fish. The tank has now had fish in it for about a month. It is heavily planted with pressurized co2.
Temp:80
Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate 5
kh 6-7
ph 7.2-7.4

So far I have lost 2 black neons, 5 green neons and 3 corys in last 2 weeks.
All the neons seem to have had bulging eyes on their deaths. The three corys looked quite normal...but dead. All have normal coloring NO mis-coloration and none showed signs of problems 24 hrs earlier...some that have died did seem to struggle an hour or two before they die (having a hard time keeping up against current or seeming listless).

All fish were placed in tank on the same day. All from same store..the only exception is an angel which I had prior too in a different tank. None of the fish have any nibbles or bites in them at all.

At present all the fish seem to hide behind plants more now then before. Angel hasnt had much of an appetite the last 10 or so days.
I do a 50% water change every friday night. Since this last Friday I lost a cory Sunday morning and 2 green neons today (3 days since last water change).

I always change the water with the same temperature water (within a degree of existing) and treat the entire tank with API tap water conditioner. The directions say for chlorine add 1 ml per 20 gallons...I always add at least 10ml (200gallon dosage) and most times up to 20 ml. But for chloramines it does say to add 1ml per 5 gallons....I am placing enough for this most times and always lately but am starting to wonder if by shutting down the overflow filter while water changing and dosing tank then adding water by python if I am giving to much of a chance for a chloramine poisoning to take hold. Is there a semi inexpensive way to determine if my tap water has chloramines present? Or if there is any remaining in tank shortly after water change?

The only fish that seem to have not been bothered by this strange death in my tank are of all things...my 4 ottocinclus...3 bulldog plecos and 5 golden clown barbs......angel is skittish and not eating and black and green neons are dropping fast and my nice little school of 5 corys is down to two lonely guys..:(

An earlier post in these regards from last week is at http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94399 but little new info was gained...obviously I may just be diseased and this is the price of buying 24 fish without quarantine. By the way the place I did buy from is a pretty trusted LFS just many many miles away.

BTW sorry for long post just want to supply all the info I could. Please feel free to read any of my earlier posts if it helps distinguish what I could be doing wrong. I have posted quite a few (probably stupid) questions earlier as I have been setting up this tank.
 
it has to be something else. most people on this site will tell you that they use pythons and prime, and either add all the prime to the tank at once before adding the water or sometimes dribble it in concurrently with the water. i don't think that chloramine poisoning is the problem, you're doing it just right plus some.

possibly some other folk can help you pinpoint a disease, or give you more ideas.
 
I quick review suggest the tank is cycling and you are over feeding. You are trying to do too much too fast even though it probably seems slow.

What plants do you have in this tank right now?
What fish are still alive?

How much water did you change today?
What are your tap water reading?
 
Ok Ergo...I am all ears and truly thank you for your reply am a little lost at some of what you said but the thought of possible overfeeding didnt come to my mind.
Not sure how I am going to fast, the purpose for doing a fishless cycle was so I could fully stock and I believe I stocked much smaller then I could have.
As to over feeding perhaps you are right. I did have an algae problem earlier (2 weeks ago) and think overfeeding may have attributed to some of that, 12+ hours of light prob did more to his though. Perhaps I am reaping the problems from that.
If my tank is cycling I would suspect ammonia or nitrite and I have seen none since I have placed fish in. My parameters are posted above.
Tap water is essentially the same in nitrite and ammonia...generally very little nitrates. My tap ph is a touch higher but lowers in tank due to driftwood and added co2.
I always do water changes on Fridays and always right around 50% (45 gallons). I have done no water change today.
The surviving fish are: 4 otocinclus nigers - 3 pitbull plecos - 6 black neons - 5 green neon - 1 angel - 2 corydoras punctatus - 5 gold clown barbs
Plants in tank: Only know common names. None of the plants have been added in 5 or 6 weeks...I actually planted a week before adding fish.
Hornwort
moneywort
Amazon and micro swords
A couple that I am ashamed to say I am not aware of their names
All plants were from a trusted LFS that actually post quite a list of warnings about buying non aquatic plants ie. from chain stores....so would at least like to think that they are safe...but not one of the plants are rotting or dieing and actually are growing extremely well. If plant life could create the problem I will investigate each name and post. I dont want to overlook any possibility and it does trouble me I am creating any stress in my fishes lives.


Can overfeeding lead to bulging eyes?
 
I was assuming that is from water changes. If cycling has anything to do with kh then I don't understand the relationship but certainly in no way pretend to know much about what is happening. I am only reporting what I have seen. When I first started injecting co2 my kh was around three with a ph around 8 if I remember right. I had thought that kh was independent of ammonia and nitrite which I understood was what I was trying to get down to 0 therefore be cycled. Please dont take offense at what I am stating. I am not trying to be rude. My response is truly in ignorance not knowledge. In the past days my kh has climbed....but only after water changes, I will check the kh of tap as well, in truth I have never checked it, just kh in tank. I will tomorrow investigate further the reason and relationship between kh...ammonia...nitrite and cycling. I will spend more time learning about this. I am trying to grasp the kh - ph relationship with co2 never gave thought to kh in any other realm. Again friend, my apologies, I do appreciate you taking the time answering my posts and sharing your knowledge.
 
Ph needs to be stable throughout the day. This fluctuation is kept in line by the buffering effect of the water (kH,gH) - if this is low (soft water), with a high pH, then there is little buffering effect on the water leading to daily fluctuations in pH.

This my help explaining better than me: http://www.drhelm.com/aquarium/chemistry.html

I wonder if you're tank is doing this - can you check the pH of your tank just before the lights come on, and just before they go off?
 
Hi everyone. I am a Newbie without that much experience, but I like to try to inform myself as well as possible when starting something new. Now I am only posting some neutral advice, not trying to come across as a smart a**.
If your water perimeters are in order then the cause may be a disease! Here are a few links or infos I have found...

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Why do my fish have bulging eyes?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]This is a condition called [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]corneybacteriosis caused by overcrowding the tank or having water high in ammonia or nitrites. The eyes bulge because there is swelling in the fish's head. The fish can be treated with penicillin and tetracycline which is available in stores. [/FONT]In addition, the ammonia & nitrite levels need to be brought back into balance by using drops. Use an ammonia & nitrite test kit.

Fish Tuberculosis
[/FONT]
Signs Of Infection
Any of the following symptoms may indicate Fish Tuberculosis; Abnormal swimming, loss of colour, lumps or sores on the body or lack of appetite.
Fish Affected
Fish Tuberculosis can affect all aquarium fish particularly Gouramis, Tetras and Cyprinids.
Details Of Infection
Often the bacteria that is responsible for fish TB is present but causes no ill effects. Only when fish are weakened or poor environmental factors prevail do fish become affected. In this instance the disease can spread rapidly eradicating the entire aquarium
The bacteria, Mycobacterium sp., can affect humans. It is important not to swallow aquarium water when siphoning from the tank and to wash your hands after maintaining the aquarium.
Treatment
Good tank maintenance will help prevent initial infection however, once the disease takes hold the only recourse is to humanly dispose of the infected fish. Infected fish should be removed from the aquarium immediately as the bacteria is quickly spread by cannibalism.



Symptom​
Indication​
Action​
Hanging out by water return
Not enough aeration / parasites / gill infestation
Add aeration / check gills for damage & disease / check water parameters / Treat for Parasites
Gulping air from water’s surface
Not enough aeration / parasites / gill infestation
Add aeration / check gills for damage & disease / check water parameters / Treat for Parasites
Hiding / alienating itself from others
Health problem is definite
Check fish for symptoms
Clamped fins
Health problem is definite
Check fish for symptoms
Flashing / rubbing against side or bottom
Parasites
Treat for Parasites
Whites turning red / red streaks
Fish highly stressed / water parameters could be off
Perform water parameter tests
Not eating when it should be hungry
Health problem is definite
Check fish for symptoms
Bloating / scales popping out / bulging eyes
Dropsy
Prognosis is death / separate if open sores exist / make him comfortable
Head hanging
Parasites / bacterial infection
Check fish for symptoms / Treat for Parasites
Sores / ulcers / deteriorating fins / red mouth
Bacterial infection
Chemotherapy water treatments or antibiotic injections / feed antibiotic food
Skin peeling / Oranda heads eaten away
pH crash or too high
Lower or raise pH & stabilize
​
Remember, just trying to help.

Cheers
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

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the OP isn't cycling - 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and 5 nitrate, with plants. how does that look like a cycling tank? loks finished to me. if the water quality is fine and the fish aren't exploding from stuffing themselves with food, then overfeeding isn't an issue either, and nothing in the first post even touches on that except to say some fish have lost their appetites.

defintely look into the Ph changes, if any, and check on your Kh and Gh for the buffering. the plants themselves aren't causing the problem, those are all pretty common tank-safe species.

what foods are you feeding? very high-protein foods can lead to pop-eye, illness, and death, but it generally takes quite a while of improper feeding for symptoms to show.
 
My gosh we may be on to something...will post a more thorough investigation after work. With lights out my ph is closer to 8. My co2 does shut off with my lights but perhaps the change of ph is my killer. My water from tap with kh is almost 9...in tank checked this morning again is right around 7. My gh in tank seems low to me ...arouind 1-2. I do have a water softner in system perhaps it is changing chemistry. I have added nothing to it since owning tank but perhaps as softening ability is fading without new recharge chip material and that is the cause of my kh change. It isnt real practical for me to disengage softener as my hot water tank is full and a weekly change of 45 gallons would be a trial at best to switch softener off a day before each change. If this is creating my problem obviously I will have to permanently disengage this and just hide from my wife (she wont kill me just make me wish I was dead - the fish arent getting that opportunity :( ).

Perhaps I should lower the amount of co2 being injected as I am struggling to get in green anyways. Perhaps a ph change down to around 7.6 so the swing isnt so large. Again obviously I have more to learn. Perhaps with the overflow I am off gassing too fast without the co2 at night :(.
 
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