I think that the leopards eating zebras was meant to be satirical, not to be accepted as fact (though I'm not sure what exactly the attrition rate on zebra babies would be in a tank full of leopards). I like the idea to agree to disagree, and I hope that we can all agree on that for now.
disorantated
- Thread starter PartyAnimal1UK
- Start date
You havent accepted anything. There is scientific proof that they dont. Not opinions. You keep saying "well I disagree", but you have made no attempt to explain what you disagree with.
I dont see how thats related to this discussion at all. If this is a poor attempt to brag about something then its best left off the forums.
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Slipknottin,You can't intellegently discuss something with someone whose" mind is made up-don't confuse me with the facts !" and closed to opposing ideas. It's a waste of time and energy.
Tracy
ok...
it would appear to me, after talking to acadministration - to which my thanks goto Dale, that you lot did not quite take what i was saying in the way it was intended. to which extent i would just like to correct afew things which you may have taken wrongly.
- firstly, i was not bragging, i was merely letting you know that i do have some scientific knowledge.
- secondly, i did not, in any way, mean to come across as harsh or, well, i cant think of the word at the minute. But im sorry if i offended any of you in any way. thats the word - offensive.
- thirdly, i was just trying to put across my opinion, and i did take on all that everyone said - i just have a belief, that goes beyond my fishkeeping, that all living things feel stuff - its like them all having a soul.
- fourthly, it was pointed out to me by Dale (i hope that was his name - or im gonna look a fool) thatyou cant read a tone of voice, and that many of you may have pictured my tone of voice in a different way it was intended.
Thanks, for reading, and i hope this does clear some air.
Thom.
it would appear to me, after talking to acadministration - to which my thanks goto Dale, that you lot did not quite take what i was saying in the way it was intended. to which extent i would just like to correct afew things which you may have taken wrongly.
- firstly, i was not bragging, i was merely letting you know that i do have some scientific knowledge.
- secondly, i did not, in any way, mean to come across as harsh or, well, i cant think of the word at the minute. But im sorry if i offended any of you in any way. thats the word - offensive.
- thirdly, i was just trying to put across my opinion, and i did take on all that everyone said - i just have a belief, that goes beyond my fishkeeping, that all living things feel stuff - its like them all having a soul.
- fourthly, it was pointed out to me by Dale (i hope that was his name - or im gonna look a fool) thatyou cant read a tone of voice, and that many of you may have pictured my tone of voice in a different way it was intended.
Thanks, for reading, and i hope this does clear some air.
Thom.
Hey sorry i haven't been around computer crashed anyway some interesting reading. First of all hi Thomas not seen you for a while will have to catch up. second i can't beleive my post has started so much tension. I believe myself that fish do feel pain, because why would they become distressed with disease e.t.c. And third the fish died, so thats ended that one. Thanks for you help guys, even if i did cause ruptions.
Reaction to stimuli does not indicate pain. There have been numerous links provided showing fish dont feel pain like we do. It is not a "belief".
[Quote from one of the links provided by jiggerpolebill]
"The facts about the neurological processes that generate pain make it highly unlikely that fish experience the emotional distress and suffering of pain. Thus, the struggles of a fish don’t signify suffering when the fish is seized in the talons of an osprey, when it is devoured while still alive by a Kodiak bear, or when it is caught by an angler".
I think this pretty much sums it up.
"The facts about the neurological processes that generate pain make it highly unlikely that fish experience the emotional distress and suffering of pain. Thus, the struggles of a fish don’t signify suffering when the fish is seized in the talons of an osprey, when it is devoured while still alive by a Kodiak bear, or when it is caught by an angler".
I think this pretty much sums it up.
partyanimal...great to hear from you. and agreeing with me, thats certainly an added bonus in any case!
mr mcfish, your quote does include the words "highly unlikely" and "signify" - which are words that are used when something is being suggested, such as a prediction prior to an experiment. It also doesnt actually provide any evidence at all that fish do not feel pain...it claims that "The facts about the neurological processes that generate pain make it highly unlikely that fish experience", yet it does not state these facts. Basically, from where i am standing, this quote appears to be using alot of big words to try and impress, but has no evidence backing it at all. So, in conclusion, i do not believe this quote sums it up at all....and when was the last time a white cloud mountain minnow was "seized in the talons of an osprey", "devoured while still alive by a Kodiak bear", or "caught by an angler"? Im afraid im not talking about salmon and trout, which that quote was apparently based around.
So much for agreeing to disagree.....one other point that came to mind when partyanimal said "I believe myself that fish do feel pain, because why would they become distressed with disease e.t.c." is that all fishkeepers are trying to reduce stress for their fish, but if they dont feel pain, like you lot are claiming (beg my pardon partyanimal), then why are you trying to 'make them more comfortable'?
One final point is that maybe this is a difference in opinion between how we keep and think about fish in England, and how you do it in USA. I say this based on evidence because me and Partyanimal are, as far as i know, the only two English to post comments here, and are in fact, from what ive seen the only two to believe that fish feel pain....
Yes, we will have to catch up partyanimal, i thought ud forgotten me...lol.
mr mcfish, your quote does include the words "highly unlikely" and "signify" - which are words that are used when something is being suggested, such as a prediction prior to an experiment. It also doesnt actually provide any evidence at all that fish do not feel pain...it claims that "The facts about the neurological processes that generate pain make it highly unlikely that fish experience", yet it does not state these facts. Basically, from where i am standing, this quote appears to be using alot of big words to try and impress, but has no evidence backing it at all. So, in conclusion, i do not believe this quote sums it up at all....and when was the last time a white cloud mountain minnow was "seized in the talons of an osprey", "devoured while still alive by a Kodiak bear", or "caught by an angler"? Im afraid im not talking about salmon and trout, which that quote was apparently based around.
So much for agreeing to disagree.....one other point that came to mind when partyanimal said "I believe myself that fish do feel pain, because why would they become distressed with disease e.t.c." is that all fishkeepers are trying to reduce stress for their fish, but if they dont feel pain, like you lot are claiming (beg my pardon partyanimal), then why are you trying to 'make them more comfortable'?
One final point is that maybe this is a difference in opinion between how we keep and think about fish in England, and how you do it in USA. I say this based on evidence because me and Partyanimal are, as far as i know, the only two English to post comments here, and are in fact, from what ive seen the only two to believe that fish feel pain....
Yes, we will have to catch up partyanimal, i thought ud forgotten me...lol.
well, u complained i didnt do research, so here goes:
www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/ Biology/0104/b00870d.html
fp.marksfish.f9.co.uk/fish_plants/tropical11.htm
www.pisces.demon.co.uk/pain.html
They actually make some very good reading...although i havent had the chance to look through them properly yet.
www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/ Biology/0104/b00870d.html
fp.marksfish.f9.co.uk/fish_plants/tropical11.htm
www.pisces.demon.co.uk/pain.html
They actually make some very good reading...although i havent had the chance to look through them properly yet.
