just more reading material, this has been posted before
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/faustus/nicoldaquaria/euthanasia.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/faustus/nicoldaquaria/euthanasia.htm
disorantated
- Thread starter PartyAnimal1UK
- Start date
Note, though, that I did not suggest the freezing method as a stand-alone. I suggested it with carbonated soda used as an anaesthetic, but the "Old Yeller" method (finally, a somewhat tasteful name for it) would be the best according to all my books (if you can do it right the first time). The carbonation/freezer method is still close to "painless," assuming, of course, that fish can feel pain. Maybe we should all do some reading (groans from all) and post as we find out new information on fish pain and best methods of euthanasia. I apologize to Party Animal for the position of the fish. I, too, have been there with one of my Otocincluses and it was a hard decision. I must admit that I used the carbonation/freezer method and I hope that he went peacefully along to that big tank in the sky, where everything is stocked perfectly and water changes are done right on time. 
Dont confuse reaction to external stimulus with a feeling of pain. Being able to feel pain is not a common trait of all animals. It is a developed process in specific regions of the ceberal cortex. Parts which fish do not have.
Did a little web research on "fish pain"
This is one opinion, by a scientist....i.e. in short "No"
http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm
and this, from the "animal liberation front"-I admit I didn't expect this answer as I truly disagree with those folks...also "No"
http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Practical/Fur--Hunting/Do Fish Feel Pain.htm
There was much more, in the interest of brevity I chose those two. I believe these reinforce the assertation that fish do not feel pain in the way humans do.
But, you've got to draw your own conclusions...
Tracy
This is one opinion, by a scientist....i.e. in short "No"
http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm
and this, from the "animal liberation front"-I admit I didn't expect this answer as I truly disagree with those folks...also "No"
http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Practical/Fur--Hunting/Do Fish Feel Pain.htm
There was much more, in the interest of brevity I chose those two. I believe these reinforce the assertation that fish do not feel pain in the way humans do.
But, you've got to draw your own conclusions...
Tracy
wulfy:
"DO NOT REPEAT MY MISTAKE."
- what more do u need to tell you against using the freezing method than a personal experiance?
kveeti:
"clove oil"
- funny you should mention it...
i, also, did som research on euthanasia of fish, and found this method the most humane. a solution of clove oil and water (from the aquarium...and kept at the correct temperature!!) should slow the metabolism of the fish down right to death. it is alot cheaper than any vet prescribed anaestetic, and works just as well. keep the fish in the solution until all gill movement has stopped, then take it out and hit it with a hammer to ensure it is dead. no, before u ask, i dont hav a thing with hitting fish with hammers....its just an instant way to kill them. now, that method i found in my latest issue of practical fishkeeping which arrived on my doorstep this morning...quite appropriate i thought. visit www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk
if you argue against this method then....well....what a sad life you must lead. and on the topic of fish feeling pain....yes, all living things do feel pain, it is thought (and scientific research going into) that even plants feel pain. of course, plants dont concieve pain in the same way as us, but fish do. if you cant find evidence that they dont, then PLZ dont put them thru it on a hunch that they dont. it isnt worth it when it can be avoided.
"DO NOT REPEAT MY MISTAKE."
- what more do u need to tell you against using the freezing method than a personal experiance?
kveeti:
"clove oil"
- funny you should mention it...
i, also, did som research on euthanasia of fish, and found this method the most humane. a solution of clove oil and water (from the aquarium...and kept at the correct temperature!!) should slow the metabolism of the fish down right to death. it is alot cheaper than any vet prescribed anaestetic, and works just as well. keep the fish in the solution until all gill movement has stopped, then take it out and hit it with a hammer to ensure it is dead. no, before u ask, i dont hav a thing with hitting fish with hammers....its just an instant way to kill them. now, that method i found in my latest issue of practical fishkeeping which arrived on my doorstep this morning...quite appropriate i thought. visit www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk
if you argue against this method then....well....what a sad life you must lead. and on the topic of fish feeling pain....yes, all living things do feel pain, it is thought (and scientific research going into) that even plants feel pain. of course, plants dont concieve pain in the same way as us, but fish do. if you cant find evidence that they dont, then PLZ dont put them thru it on a hunch that they dont. it isnt worth it when it can be avoided.
guess you didnt bother reading any of the above links on the other posts.
if youre just going to hit it with a hammer anyway, why even bother stressing the fish by putting it in another container with the clove oil? why bother taking the time to slow its metabolism? just get your hammer ready, net it, hit it and be done with it. your link doesnt work, or at least it didnt for me.
all living things feel pain? interesting. how does a single cell organism feel pain? fish do not feel pain the way we do. if they did, then theyd also feel everything else we the way we do as well. how much evidence do you need for that? we arent built the same. do you really need proof of that as well? if youre having such a hard time finding evidence, simply click on the links in the posts above.
http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/il-in/faq/pain.htm
http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm
http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/animalwelfare/Fish pain/Pain.htm
http://www.amonline.net.au/fishes/faq/pain.htm
http://www.richardlouv.com/The Angler's%20Manifesto.html
http://www.countryside-alliance.org/edu/water/chap3.htm
there's a start for you. so as not to be biased, i put in arguments for both cases. either way, we dont share the same physiology, so we dont feel things the same. all living things do not feel pain.
if youre just going to hit it with a hammer anyway, why even bother stressing the fish by putting it in another container with the clove oil? why bother taking the time to slow its metabolism? just get your hammer ready, net it, hit it and be done with it. your link doesnt work, or at least it didnt for me.
all living things feel pain? interesting. how does a single cell organism feel pain? fish do not feel pain the way we do. if they did, then theyd also feel everything else we the way we do as well. how much evidence do you need for that? we arent built the same. do you really need proof of that as well? if youre having such a hard time finding evidence, simply click on the links in the posts above.
http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/il-in/faq/pain.htm
http://www.cotrout.org/do_fish_feel_pain.htm
http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/animalwelfare/Fish pain/Pain.htm
http://www.amonline.net.au/fishes/faq/pain.htm
http://www.richardlouv.com/The Angler's%20Manifesto.html
http://www.countryside-alliance.org/edu/water/chap3.htm
there's a start for you. so as not to be biased, i put in arguments for both cases. either way, we dont share the same physiology, so we dont feel things the same. all living things do not feel pain.
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me and you dont hav the same phisiology...doesnt mean one of us doesnt feel pain, does it? r u sayin that the fish wouldnt mind if u picked its scales off one by one? or a cory wouldnt mind if u plucked its barbels? would they not feel it? if you use same water from your aquarium and a resonable sized tank when u admister the clove oil, then the fish would not feel stressed.the suggestion of clove oil was put forward as many of u seemed unable to just hit a fish with a hammer while it was fully active. (btw...my link is workin now...i just checked it.) i dont think we're ever gonna settle this...none of us seem 2 want to agree with each other, so i suggest that unless someone has a great way of settling this, then we drop then whole euthanasia disagreement and do what we individually believe is best for our fish. (nb: this is not me givin in - its just a mature way of handling things.) however, i suggest u all look at my link thou. its a gr8 website from a great magazine.
www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk
www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk
no, i do not see researching the topic necessary. there is no doubt in my mind that they do feel pain...and i do not feel there should be any doubt in anybodies mind. that is my view...and i stand by it, and swear by it. of course fish feel pain, u look at them in your aquarium, put ur hand on ur heart, and say they dont. this is not basing anything on science, experiance, or any of that...its from the heart, and a personal opinion. fish do feel pain, and i will never believe any other way. i will find scientific evidence if you want, but is it really necessary?
unfortunately thom336, im not as mature as you, so i have to kick the dead horse. let me start with my quote:
i guess i should have been a little more specific because i cant believe just how far over your head it went. when i mentioned "we" in the above, i meant "we" as in "humans and fish". next, your response:
explain to me how you and i arent the same physiologically speaking. do you have a 3rd arm or perhaps some organ that enables you to breathe underwater? me and you and every other human on the planet are, for the most part, physiologically the same. we all have hands, livers, hearts, etc that are constructed the same. the main difference would come between sexes. there is not part of you or me that is like a fish. there is no part of a fish that is like us. if that were the case, we'd probably never run out of organ donors, would we? we dont have fins. fish dont have feet or elbows. does that make a little more sense now?
with this same line of thinking, if you think the world is flat because you cant see across the ocean to us, then it simply must be flat and we're all a bunch of idiots to think otherwise.
do you apply that same rationale to your everyday life as well? how do you ever expect to gain any credibility with this hobby or any other if thats your line of thought? "well, even though i dont keep them in my tank, i dont think you should keep zebra danios with leopard danios because it just doesnt sound right to me. everybody knows leopards like to eat zebras, so it wouldnt be a good idea."
you dont even have to do the leg work anymore for it! weve started for you, and even gave you some info to base your argument on! you want to believe that fish feel everything the same way you do, go right ahead. but at least make SOME kind of attempt to back it up, especially when youre giving people the 3rd degree on how you think theyre wrong.
i guess i should have been a little more specific because i cant believe just how far over your head it went. when i mentioned "we" in the above, i meant "we" as in "humans and fish". next, your response:
explain to me how you and i arent the same physiologically speaking. do you have a 3rd arm or perhaps some organ that enables you to breathe underwater? me and you and every other human on the planet are, for the most part, physiologically the same. we all have hands, livers, hearts, etc that are constructed the same. the main difference would come between sexes. there is not part of you or me that is like a fish. there is no part of a fish that is like us. if that were the case, we'd probably never run out of organ donors, would we? we dont have fins. fish dont have feet or elbows. does that make a little more sense now?
with this same line of thinking, if you think the world is flat because you cant see across the ocean to us, then it simply must be flat and we're all a bunch of idiots to think otherwise.
do you apply that same rationale to your everyday life as well? how do you ever expect to gain any credibility with this hobby or any other if thats your line of thought? "well, even though i dont keep them in my tank, i dont think you should keep zebra danios with leopard danios because it just doesnt sound right to me. everybody knows leopards like to eat zebras, so it wouldnt be a good idea."
you dont even have to do the leg work anymore for it! weve started for you, and even gave you some info to base your argument on! you want to believe that fish feel everything the same way you do, go right ahead. but at least make SOME kind of attempt to back it up, especially when youre giving people the 3rd degree on how you think theyre wrong.
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i must say...this is the first ive heard on leapord danios eating zebra danios...
i have a respect for fish, and i am thinking that you lot do as well. i didnt do all this for an arguement to happen....all i wanted to do on this post was help out an old friend of mine, partyanimal1uk, with her problem. this all started when it was claimed that fish dont feel pain. obviously we have a different way on looking on the subject....i tried 2 stop the arguement numerous times over, and accepted ur opinions, yet u lot continue to fire ur arguement at me. i am prepared to agree to disagree, and i should hope you lot would be as well.
one last point...evidence? im soon to go onto study aquatics and fisheries management at sparsholt college, the leading aquatic university in the UK. i dont get there thru limited scientific knowledge.
i have a respect for fish, and i am thinking that you lot do as well. i didnt do all this for an arguement to happen....all i wanted to do on this post was help out an old friend of mine, partyanimal1uk, with her problem. this all started when it was claimed that fish dont feel pain. obviously we have a different way on looking on the subject....i tried 2 stop the arguement numerous times over, and accepted ur opinions, yet u lot continue to fire ur arguement at me. i am prepared to agree to disagree, and i should hope you lot would be as well.
one last point...evidence? im soon to go onto study aquatics and fisheries management at sparsholt college, the leading aquatic university in the UK. i dont get there thru limited scientific knowledge.
