disorantated

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by thom336
well, u complained i didnt do research, so here goes:

www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/ Biology/0104/b00870d.html

fp.marksfish.f9.co.uk/fish_plants/tropical11.htm

www.pisces.demon.co.uk/pain.html

They actually make some very good reading...although i havent had the chance to look through them properly yet.

Your first link says they respond to outside stimuli, no comments are made about them feeling pain.

Your second link says

"judging from accumulating evidence based on anatomical, biochemical and behavioural studies." I mentioned that fish probably perceive pain in a different way to us: we simply do not know what they feel.

And your third link seems to imply that because they have brains that they feel pain. A pretty poor and unfounded argument. Furthermore, that paper was written in 1994. and states clearly

All the fundamental structures and modulation processes necessary to achieve a perception of pain are present in fish.

We now know that isnt true, recent tests have proved otherwise.

You would likely argue with that last link yourself, as you said earlier you believe everything including plants feels pain.


I dont see why where your from has anything to do with the argument at hand. You keep attempting to turn this into a moral arguemnt which it is not. I certainly treat my fish well, and knowning that they dont feel pain isnt going to make me treat them any differently.

 

[Slappy*McFish]

I read all the links provided and my conclusion is that fish lack the intelligence to "dwell" on "pain"....sure, they feel stimuli, but they arent thinking "damn this hurts!!!!...I'm going to die!!!...omg!!!"....have you ever cut yourself before and not noticed it until you actually saw blood and then only just realized that you cut yourself?...funny how it starts to hurt after realization and thinking about it....Fish don't know or think about the fact that they are hurting...they are just reacting to stimuli...sure fish may actually feel "pain" but just don't have the mental capacity to associate it with discomfort like we humans do.

 

[spikekillifish]

The Native American Fish Association recomends you place the fish quickly between two sheets of paper or plastic then smash the fish with a rock or hammer, they will never know what hit them. If the fish is not diseased you can feed the remains to your other fish.

 

[jiggerpolebill]

so now were going to go species specific on which fish feels more pain?

and when was the last time a white cloud mountain minnow was "seized in the talons of an osprey", "devoured while still alive by a Kodiak bear", or "caught by an angler"? Im afraid im not talking about salmon and trout, which that quote was apparently based around.

how bout this? when was the last time a white cloud minnow was snagged in a turtles jaws, a birds beak or a bigger fishes mouth? does that help out any?

mr mcfish, your quote does include the words "highly unlikely" and "signify" - which are words that are used when something is being suggested, such as a prediction prior to an experiment. It also doesnt actually provide any evidence at all that fish do not feel pain...it claims that "The facts about the neurological processes that generate pain make it highly unlikely that fish experience", yet it does not state these facts.

and you really have the nerve to type this before you went out on your own to support your own argument? please. youre in england and here we are in america. big deal. sorry but im not buying the whole language/culture difference for this one.

So much for agreeing to disagree.....one other point that came to mind when partyanimal said "I believe myself that fish do feel pain, because why would they become distressed with disease e.t.c." is that all fishkeepers are trying to reduce stress for their fish, but if they dont feel pain, like you lot are claiming (beg my pardon partyanimal), then why are you trying to 'make them more comfortable'?

stress and physical pain. two different subjects completely.

One final point is that maybe this is a difference in opinion between how we keep and think about fish in England, and how you do it in USA.

two letters. 'B' and 'S'. lastly...

"what do you call a fish with no eyes? - a fsh!"

good one!

 

[spikekillifish]

This discussion could go round and round with out a definitive answer. What's important I think is our perception of a diseased or suffering fish that brings out a compasion related to our own experiences of pain and suffering. It makes us feel at ease if we can somehow aid or put an end to this misery whether its a fish, or any type of living creature. I myself will assume that a fish does feel pain just incase the theorists are wrong.

 

[thom336]

"The RSPCA believes that current practices in angling do involve infliction of pain and suffering on fish."
- Royal Society for the Protection of Cruelty to Animals

"I myself will assume that a fish does feel pain"
- spikekillifish

"I believe myself that fish do feel pain"
- PartyAnimal1UK

"there is no doubt in my mind that they (fish) do feel pain"
- thom336

"'but do fish feel pain?' he enquired.
'They most certainly do,' bounced my reply"
- Dr Peter Burgess

 

[slipknottin]

Wow, quoting people in this thread.


As Ive said, in order to validate your case, you need to tell us what it is you disagree with, and show proof of you being correct.

Sayin "I believe they feel pain" is directly contrary to the experiments and tests being done by experts in the field. You have shown no proof indicating that they do feel pain, other than misguided or misinformed quotes.

 

[thom336]

my quotes were neither misguided or misinformed. in fact, 2 of them were quoted from resents replys...so they had read ALL the arguements...includin urs, and went for what they thought were best. That is what is called a balanced arguement. The others, except mine, were from experts in the field. mine is, well, my opinion. i dont think mine really needs covering...lol.

and saying: "i believe they feel pain" is not directly contary, or contary at all to the tests and experiments done by experts in the fields....in fact Dr Peter Burgess is britains best selling fishkeeping magazine's top fish health expert...and that agrees entirely with him!

 

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by thom336

and saying: "i believe they feel pain" is not directly contary, or contary at all to the tests and experiments done by experts in the fields....in fact Dr Peter Burgess is britains best selling fishkeeping magazine's top fish health expert...and that agrees entirely with him!

Dr. Peter Burgess explicitly says

I mentioned that fish probably perceive pain in a different way to us: we simply do not know what they feel.

His article was written a year ago, and says they do likely because he hadent heard of the studies being done to prove otherwise.

What you believe or dont believe isnt entirely relevant.

 

[Hammerman]

Please, understand by no means do I intend to ruffle anyone's feathers,

But I have been reading this post over and over and one question I've now had to asked myself is,

If fish do not feel pain, does that mean they do not suffer?

I'm only asking this because you see the word "suffer" used time and time again in threads posted here. Are we just using that word because of our own compassion or empathy for a living thing?

Just asking...

Thanks~
Scott