Has anyone heard of flukes being resistant to Praziquantel? I have doubled the dose of Prazi and increased the salt and temp in my tank, but haven't seen any improvements over the last week. I treated 6 months ago for flukes and bought discus from a fish store since then that reintroduced the flukes into my tank. I am almost positive that I just didn't quarantine the discus long enough this time. Believe me, lesson learned! I have read that flukes can be resistant to formalin and organophosphates like Trichlorfon. I have experience with resistance to trichlorfon, which was why I switched to Prazi in the first place. But, now I am not seeing the response I would like to during the Prazi treatment this time around. Everything I read says Prazi paralyzes flukes within about a minute of contact. Now I am wondering what the deal is? Could it be resistance to prazi? Maybe I should try fluke tabs instead and see if that has a better response? It is not in the critical stage just yet, but if prazi isn't working, then it could be heading there.
flukes and Prazi--resistance?
- Thread starter jjohns
- Start date
If you do a search on flukes, not too long ago liv2padl answered a post with a detailed write-up concerning flukes. I've been having issues with them too - could you be also re-introducing them via moving plants from tank to tank? Let me see if I can find that write up and cut/paste it here.
Cathy
Here is the link to the discussion -
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89552&highlight=flukes+liv2padl
Cathy
Here is the link to the discussion -
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89552&highlight=flukes+liv2padl
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actually there has been reports that prazi has lost effectiveness on some flukes.
there are other med available (I believe I heard some may be using flubenzadole)
I have also heard that malachite green salt and prazi are used. tho I am not sure if it works.
I'll see if I an remember where I found that info. and get more information.
just read liv2pdls post referred to by cathy..
good info
there are other med available (I believe I heard some may be using flubenzadole)
I have also heard that malachite green salt and prazi are used. tho I am not sure if it works.
I'll see if I an remember where I found that info. and get more information.
just read liv2pdls post referred to by cathy..
good info
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If the Prazi is loosing effectiveness, I might get some Fluke Tabs which have trichlorfon and mebendazole as active ingredients. That is the next option I am considering. I wouldn't think that the flukes would be resistant to both Prazi and trichlorfon at the same time. I think if one doesn't work, the other probably will.
I have been doing 75% water changes every 4 days and retreating with 2x the recommended starting dose for Prazi. I removed everything from the tank except a thin layer of gravel and a couple plastic plants to give the fish some cover. I vacuum the gravel everytime I change the water and I scrub the glass frequently. I added some salt and turned up the heat slowly--trying to get it to about 86-88F to speed up the fluke life cycle so I can kill them faster. So, I have taken most precautions that I can plus adding more aeration. The water changing equipment is dried between uses which will kill any parasites they may have on them as well. Believe me, I have had this same go around before and I don't want it to get that far advanced this time so I am doing everything I can right away. Last time I used Prazi, it didn't seem to take effect as quickly as I hoped, but as soon as I cranked up the temp from about 78-79F to the upper 80s, I saw much greater improvement each day. After about 4 days, the fish that had been sitting motionless on the bottom were finally moving around and trying to eat. I was thrilled. This was after an attempted treatment with Trichlorfon (which they were resistant to).
The only thing that I was wondering about this time, is either I don't have the temp high enough (because it was hovering around 81-82 degrees over the last couple weeks while trying to treat it) or the prazi is not effective. I added another heater last night so I could slowly ramp it up to where I want it. In my opinion, Prazi doesn't lhave any strength after 3-4 days in the aquarium. So, that is as long as I go before a water change and redosing.
Cathy, how warm was your aquarium temp when you used the Prazi? I am using Prazi-pro form which I am not extremely fond of since it leaves a thick film on everything in the aquarium after a couple days. My dosage is about 5 mg/L (2x the recommended starting dose).
I have been doing 75% water changes every 4 days and retreating with 2x the recommended starting dose for Prazi. I removed everything from the tank except a thin layer of gravel and a couple plastic plants to give the fish some cover. I vacuum the gravel everytime I change the water and I scrub the glass frequently. I added some salt and turned up the heat slowly--trying to get it to about 86-88F to speed up the fluke life cycle so I can kill them faster. So, I have taken most precautions that I can plus adding more aeration. The water changing equipment is dried between uses which will kill any parasites they may have on them as well. Believe me, I have had this same go around before and I don't want it to get that far advanced this time so I am doing everything I can right away. Last time I used Prazi, it didn't seem to take effect as quickly as I hoped, but as soon as I cranked up the temp from about 78-79F to the upper 80s, I saw much greater improvement each day. After about 4 days, the fish that had been sitting motionless on the bottom were finally moving around and trying to eat. I was thrilled. This was after an attempted treatment with Trichlorfon (which they were resistant to).
The only thing that I was wondering about this time, is either I don't have the temp high enough (because it was hovering around 81-82 degrees over the last couple weeks while trying to treat it) or the prazi is not effective. I added another heater last night so I could slowly ramp it up to where I want it. In my opinion, Prazi doesn't lhave any strength after 3-4 days in the aquarium. So, that is as long as I go before a water change and redosing.
Cathy, how warm was your aquarium temp when you used the Prazi? I am using Prazi-pro form which I am not extremely fond of since it leaves a thick film on everything in the aquarium after a couple days. My dosage is about 5 mg/L (2x the recommended starting dose).
Do the hooks from gill flukes remain attached in the fish after the flukes have been killed by Prazi and fall away? It could be possible that the Prazi is killing the flukes, but the fish are still scratching because the hooks are still in their gills? Anyone know if this is true, and if so, how long the hooks remain until they fall out?
Hi Jjons,
It happened in one of my fry tanks and the temps were probably around 82 or so. I didn't have to double my dose but saw dramatic improvement in 24 hours.
Secondary infections can come in from where the flukes were attached, but I've never heard that the hooks could still remain while the flukes have died. My guess is that the fish's immune system would be able to deal with any remaining hooks much like ours would if we got a sliver. Unless of course they are severely weakened and the water quality is bad.
I also heard that flukes don't swim well and that is why they usually develop large populations in crowded tanks and shipping bags. I suspect that my major outbreak was due to having a tank stuffed with floating plants and fry. I had QT'd the plants for a month, but they were QT'd in a tank with a fish... so perhaps the flukes ate enough to survive the QT period and then went on to the big time when I put them in with all those little fish.
Oh, I was also using PraziPro. Hmm. Maybe I'll try a fluke tabs too - I assume you are talking about the Jungle tab? I think they have Praziquantel, Metronidazole and perhap Flubendazole combined. Since those meds are fairly safe, perhaps combined it would do the trick with your fish. Keep us posted ok? If there is a resistant strain of flukes it won't be long until we all have big problems!
Cathy
It happened in one of my fry tanks and the temps were probably around 82 or so. I didn't have to double my dose but saw dramatic improvement in 24 hours.
Secondary infections can come in from where the flukes were attached, but I've never heard that the hooks could still remain while the flukes have died. My guess is that the fish's immune system would be able to deal with any remaining hooks much like ours would if we got a sliver. Unless of course they are severely weakened and the water quality is bad.
I also heard that flukes don't swim well and that is why they usually develop large populations in crowded tanks and shipping bags. I suspect that my major outbreak was due to having a tank stuffed with floating plants and fry. I had QT'd the plants for a month, but they were QT'd in a tank with a fish... so perhaps the flukes ate enough to survive the QT period and then went on to the big time when I put them in with all those little fish.
Oh, I was also using PraziPro. Hmm. Maybe I'll try a fluke tabs too - I assume you are talking about the Jungle tab? I think they have Praziquantel, Metronidazole and perhap Flubendazole combined. Since those meds are fairly safe, perhaps combined it would do the trick with your fish. Keep us posted ok? If there is a resistant strain of flukes it won't be long until we all have big problems!
Cathy
You do know that there is no meds that will kills flukes...they just all make them release from the host (fish). When treating flukes, it is best to use a heavy formalin bath, then move to a new tank (that has been dry for atleast 4-5 days as fluke eggs cannot survive without water). I know a discus breeder friend of mine who uses a heavy formalin bath (5-6+ drops per gallon, plus 1/4 cup salt per 10 gallons) and let them go for about an hour or two (or shorter...depending on how the fish look), then transfer them to a totally new and clean tank that has been dry for a while (with same salt levels in new tank). This reduces the chances of flukes reinfesting the fish to a level where they are breathing hard. The fluke eggs on the other hand are not affected, so this treatment must be done once a week or so for 3-4 weeks. I have never seen a fish from his hatchery that ever had flukes. This system is more intense, but it does work. And IMO, formalin works better than anything else to treat flukes.
-Ryan
-Ryan
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/trematodes.shtml
Here is a link to more discussion about flukes...
Hi Ryan, well there is no way I'll be able to treat all the fish in my tanks in this way. I don't have room for any more tanks, and I have lots of baby fish in the ones I do have!
We need some serious scientists to come up with a product and VERY clear directions... I've noticed on the Prazi Pro bottle that they tell you to treat 1 teasp/ 20 gallons. Then they say dose may be repeated 5-7 days. There is no explanation about water changes, about eggs hatching, etc.
I've noticed that same stuff on antibiotic packages. There aren't warnings about the tank lights degrading the products...
I am hoping you were wrong about the Prazi not killing them... I have heard that some of the worm medicines only paralyze the worms - I think it is the levimasole for camellanus - but am hoping that the Prazi does indeed kill the flukes. After watching a tank crash due to flukes a while back, even though I do 50% water changes every 2-3 days, I've gotten paranoid about the buggers.
Well, I'll keep checking around for more info.
Cathy
Here is a link to more discussion about flukes...
Hi Ryan, well there is no way I'll be able to treat all the fish in my tanks in this way. I don't have room for any more tanks, and I have lots of baby fish in the ones I do have!
We need some serious scientists to come up with a product and VERY clear directions... I've noticed on the Prazi Pro bottle that they tell you to treat 1 teasp/ 20 gallons. Then they say dose may be repeated 5-7 days. There is no explanation about water changes, about eggs hatching, etc.
I've noticed that same stuff on antibiotic packages. There aren't warnings about the tank lights degrading the products...
I am hoping you were wrong about the Prazi not killing them... I have heard that some of the worm medicines only paralyze the worms - I think it is the levimasole for camellanus - but am hoping that the Prazi does indeed kill the flukes. After watching a tank crash due to flukes a while back, even though I do 50% water changes every 2-3 days, I've gotten paranoid about the buggers.
Well, I'll keep checking around for more info.
Cathy
My fish seemed a little better today after having the temp higher in the tank for the last little while along with the prazi. I will check them out tonight again--do another water change and add more prazi. I will be gone this weekend, so I will have to see how they are doing Monday night when I get home. Hopefully they will be improving!
From what I have read, it sounds like Prazi does kill flukes. I think its mode of action is to paralyze them first so they fall off the fish, but then their lack of ability to clamp on to another host fish will cause them to die. I would think as long as Prazi is in the water, they will stay paralyzed if they are not dead. Then your water changes and repeated cleaning and redosing with Prazi will eliminate the rest of them, and any new larvae that hatch from eggs since the eggs aren't effected by the Prazi either. I think the key is to keep things clean and treat long enough to eliminate the new larvae and eggs. In my opinion, the 5-7 day treatment time that is listed on the Prazi-pro bottle is not nearly long enough. I did for 25-31 days with the stuff at elevated temps to make sure that I had gotten it all. Since that episode, I got a UV sterilizer to help kill any free floating parasites as well. The fish were fine for about 4 months, but then I think I reintroduced them back into the tank with another discus. My QT procedures have since changed also. If there has ever been a supreme hater of flukes, it would have to be me!