Freeze dried bacteria

OK, I now have a document (copied pages from "Bergey's Manual of Determinative Bacteriology-9") with various info on nitrite-oxidizing and ammonia-oxidizing bacteria.

First, a couple of comments. My initial post on this was premature and I don't think I heard everything she was telling me...

I don't believe this document talks about freezing bacteria (will comment if I find stuff on that). From what our Lab Manager said, this is an "R&D" thing - that is, in general, bacteria can be frozen and then "restored" to active condition. Exactly how to do this successfully will vary by the type of bacteria and companies spend a lot of money researching this to perfect techniques. So I don't think I'm likely to get you anything more detailed than this.

Next, keep in mind when we're talking about "nitrobacter" (et al), we're talking about a genus and there could be any number of species within the genus, each having its own unique attributes.

That said, I'm digging in....

NITRITE EATERS
Nitrobacter - its major source of energy is nitrite. Can also oxidize organic matter (I wonder if it'll clean up organic carpet stains....). All "terrestrial" forms of nitrite-oxidizing bacteria belong to this genus. Hmm. Well, the scientist I talked to said they live in marine water (maybe she saw the following and didn't read in detail), and there's a statement: "Species when distributed in oceans often are obligately halophilic." And no statements about Nitrobacter in other types of water. I'm not sure that's conclusive - can't find anything more in these pages.

Nitrospira - nitrite is their only energy source, but they "generate" a lot faster in the presence of organic substances. In bold: "Seawater is essential for growth. Optimal growth occurs in a medium containing 70-100% seawater enriched with nitrite, pyruvate, glycerol, yeast extract, or peptone." (in case you were planning on growing your own) There's only one species: Nitrospira marina.

I won't talk about these as I've never heard them referenced in regards to aquariums, but there's also: Nitrospina (needs seawater) and Nitrococcus ("Optimal growth occurs in 70-100% seawater. Exclusively isolated from marine environments."). This makes me think maybe (some species (there appears to be 3) of) Nitrobacter, which doesn't explicitly say it must have seawater may be compatible with all types of water (the intro for nitrite-oxidizing does explicitly say these types of bacteria live in "soils, fresh water, brackish water, seawater, mudlayers, sewage disposal systemss, and inside stones of historical buildings and rocks." (go figure))

AMMONIA EATERS
Generic stuff: optimal growth temp is 30 C, pH is between 7.5 and 8.0. Distributed in "soils, oceans, brackish environments, rivers, lakes, and sewage disposal systems." Ammonia is the energy "substrate" with CO2 the main source of carbon.

Nitrosomonas - Appears in all the above types of environments.

Nitrosospira - Appears in soils and freshwater environments.

And then there's these guys I won't cover in detail cuz I've never heard them mentioned in relation to aquaria... Nitrosococcus ("restricted to marine and brackish environments" (with one exception, found in soil)), Nitrosolobus (exclusively from soil), "Nitrosovibrio" (originate from soil or building stones - one species hails from the dirt in Hawaii - aloha!).

Well, that's all I've got. Maybe someone will find it interesting. I find the Nitrite-eaters interesting in that it looks to be strictly nitrobacter as a possibility for freshwater (I've triple checked this).

As far as Bio-Spira goes, it says it has Nitrosomonas (good for ammonia in FW, SW and brackish (per above)), Nitrosospira (good for ammonia in freshwater) and Nitrospira (good for nitrite in SW). This would seem to indicate it's useless for nitrite in a FW system, unsure about a brackish system. However, they also say they have patented and patent-pending strains of the stuff, so they could well have worked long and hard to "create" or discover new species for each genus (and kept it a secret for obvious reasons) so that there is something there to handle nitrite in a FW system. No way of knowing for sure, really. This theory is supported by some of the stuff on Marineland's web site - though at least one statement (about nitrosomonas and nitrobacter) directly contradicts the above and I'm inclined to believe the above as it's got nothing to sell and we've got some excellent scientists where I work. NOTE: The above says nothing of their suitability for aquaria and this may be the difference between what Marineland are claiming and what the reference book says (though the way Marineland say it is, IMO, misleading (at least)). The article also mentions "nitrospira-like" - which could explain why their claims for their bacteria differ from the above. Unfortunately, these bacteria will hold little interest for the scientists where I work or I would ask them to help me with further study.

Suffice it to say, I believe Bio-Spira is a good product which does help to jump-start a cycle. Two other products proclaiming to do the same didn't appear to work for me (but I don't know that my experience is enough to go by).

Sorry to be so long-winded. Hope it made for a good bed-time story.

Liz

(Anyone wanna volunteer to test "nitrobacter as stain remover"? <g>)
 
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RTR said:
Roan - The ATCC stores and ships these bugs as FD or frozen specimens. This does not mean that this is home technique (it is certainly not) or that hobbyists would be able to bring these bugs back into active form easily in their tanks.

http://www.atcc.org/
Wow, now that's a cool link. Wonder if they will ship anthrax :)

Just kidding!

Roan
 
Liz,

If you go to that size that RTR indicated you'll see nitrospira stock for sale that was cultivated or found in soil etc.,. ie freshwater environment. I think your comment about different strains of bacteria is more correct than you think.

I don't think Marineland is misleading anyone, I think they are using a strain of nitrospira that is found in fw or terrestrial environments.

I may have missed it, but I also don't see any nitrospira on that site that was collected from sw. It's all terrestrial or FW derived. I also didn't see any nitrobacter that was collected terrestrial unless it was a coastal area, all marine.

I could be wrong -- I looked carefully but I bet you could sort through it all faster than I could.

Roan
 
Roan Art said:
Liz,

If you go to that size that RTR indicated you'll see nitrospira stock for sale that was cultivated or found in soil etc.,. ie freshwater environment. I think your comment about different strains of bacteria is more correct than you think.Roan

Oh, that may be why I once read advice to take a spoon of dirt from a clean area, mix with water, and strain with a coffee-type filter to get necessary bacteria into a tank to cycle. I did this, but have no idea if it works, goldfish was terribly stressed, maybe it wasn't "clean dirt" but full of pesticides from mosquito sprays used in the neighborhood.
 
Roan Art said:
If you go to that size that RTR indicated you'll see nitrospira stock for sale that was cultivated or found in soil etc.,. ie freshwater environment. I think your comment about different strains of bacteria is more correct than you think.
I clicked on bacteria and searched for Nitrospira and Nitrospira marina was all I found:

http://www.atcc.org/common/catalog/numSearch/numResults.cfm?atccNum=43039

...I'm not saying this won't survive in freshwater or anything else - it's not clear to me from the page; it's just that it's the same Nitrospira described in the ref. book I was using. ATCC wouldn't necessarily have access to a "patented" strain...

Roan Art said:
I don't think Marineland is misleading anyone, I think they are using a strain of nitrospira that is found in fw or terrestrial environments.
I'm not saying they're misleading about what Bio-Spira does, but they're not qualifying their statements about other bacteria enough (IMO), thus making it sound like they don't do things which they actually do (I have no problem accepting they may not "work" in aquaria). (More specifically, they were basically saying "these bacteria don't eat nitrite (or ammonia)" - that's not true; it may be true that they don't do it in aquaria (well?), but they didn't, IMO, include that caveat plainly (I think they were trying to simplify and get the reader to forget about these bacteria to avoid people thinking / saying "well if it eats nitrite, why won't it eat nitrite in my aquarium"). Anywho, that's strictly my opinion of the way it was written.)

Roan Art said:
I may have missed it, but I also don't see any nitrospira on that site that was collected from sw. It's all terrestrial or FW derived. I also didn't see any nitrobacter that was collected terrestrial unless it was a coastal area, all marine.
I was drawing a conclusion, nothing more; the ref. book wasn't clear on nitrobacter, listed several nitrite-oxidizers and said nitrite-oxidizers appear in all kinds of water, then explicitly ruled out all of them but nitrobacter as living in FW. Maybe there are more that weren't listed (e.g. they only listed the more common varieties). I'm nothing like an expert on any of this, only reporting what I've found and trying to make it clear when something is my conclusion. I still believe the reference book completely and haven't seen anything that contradicts it, IMO. I don't think anything we've seen is complete enough to call any of these sources right or wrong - they could easily be adding to each other.

I also think the debate (without a trusted scientist/expert/lab) is pretty meaningless. Experience seems to have told folks what works and what doesn't, why doesn't matter as much to me...

Liz

PS: I could probably get you some anthrax, but you probably couldn't afford it, cuz then I'd have to flee to somewhere that doesn't have extradition laws... :joe:
 
The strains in use in Bio-Spira were originally from aquarium filter isolates. I have no info on what selctions and/or manipulations they were subjected, to or reselected from, but if I were setting up a to-be-patented product you bet that there would be some definite selection process. Strain selection is an art as well as a science, and for commercial processes it is akin to gold.
 
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