gH/kH baking soda question

[Gena575]

My LFS requires a water sample to purchase fish so when I went in today I took a bit of my tank water with me. The didn't bother with ammonia (odd), but used the dip strips for nitrite/nitrate, pH, gH and kH. So, the results matched mine at home, but they were very concerned with my gH and kH. I have rather soft water and my pH is neutral. (gH 4, kH 3 and pH has actually dropped to 6.8...it was 7.2 when I started this adventure). The dip strips read my gH at 75ppm, kH at 40ppm...both of those convert out to what the drops test at for degrees.
My other stats are as follows:
Tank up and running since 2-3, 3 harlequin rasboras added 2-8, 1 blue apple snail added today approx 1" diameter
Various plants (java fern and moss, a bronze crypt and 2 things I'm not sure what they are)
2 2" terra cotta pots to attach the java moss to
ammonia 1ppm (after 50% w/c this AM, am getting ready to do another)
nitrite 0ppm
nitrate 0ppm
temp 79

The LFS tried to sell me Mardel's Buffer-up for $7. After looking at the box I told them I had baking soda at home LOL! But my question after all of this is do I need to raise my "buffer"? Is baking soda the best way to achieve this? Could this be why my cycle seems to be completely stalled?

Also, I know the harlies need more friends, but I'm trying to get the cycle sorted out before adding more fish. The snail can go in a 2.5 gallon that is currently empty if he needs to but so far he seems pretty happy where he is. The fish have also shown no signs of stress at all. They zip around, play tag, swim laps in the filter out put and eat like piggies. Any help is greatly appreciated. The gH/kH articles I've found leave me more confused that I was before LOL!

 

[joephys]

I would think that would be ok. Sounds like they are trying to use the water sample thing as a way to tell people that they "need to buy something to add to the tank." The fact that they didn't test for ammonia makes me think so even more. I have never heard of a fish store requiring a water sample to buy fish.

gH/kH in a nut shell. GH: calcium and magnesium disolved in the water. Typically high in the lakes that african cichlids come from. Typically low in the amazon.

KH: Ammount of carbonates in the water. Usually this is your buffering capacity, but sometimes there are other buffers if the water.

 

[Roan Art]

KH is what gives your tank pH stability, and is consumed via natural processes. If the KH is not replenished, ie via water changes, both the pH and KH will begin to drop. When the KH reaches 0, then there is nothing left that can be used by the biofilter and the good bacteria will begin to die off. Usually at that point the pH of the tank is at ~6.0.

This is what the term "pH crash" refers to, although a better term would be "KH crash". However, since most people do not monitor their KH, the dropping pH is all they see.

So long as you are keeping up with regular weekly water changes of 25% or more, there is no danger of a 3dKH dropping to 0.

In fact, the only time you should even worry about a KH of 3 is if you decide to add a lot of plants and inject CO2. 3dKH is "borderline" and some people who inject buffer it up and some do not.

If it concerns you, the best *temporary* course of action is to use baking soda to increase the KH/pH. Adding chemicals to the tank increases the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) of the water and should be avoided when at all possible. That includes the stuff the LFS was trying to sell you.

For long term or "permanent" buffering, a handful of crushed coral and/or aragonite put in a sock or nylon stocking and placed in your filter will provide a permanent increase. Coral/aragonite takes a while to dissolve at pH levels over 7.0, so it may take a week or two for anything to happen. Baking soda will serve as a buffer in the meantime, and if you monitor the KH and note when it begins to rise on its own above that which has been set by the baking soda, then the soda is no longer needed.

As for the LFS -- to give them the benefit of the doubt, they may have had your best interests at heart. They most likely don't realize that it's not necessary with regular water changes and that there are better, cheaper, and more permanent alternatives available.

Hope that helps

Roan

 

[happychem]

Given your parameters, there's no need to buffer your tank or increase KH and pH.

In fact, it would only make things worse. Your pH/KH are more than adequate and the fact that your pH is slightly acidic is better than slightly basic when you have ammonia in the water. A lower pH means that a larger fraction of ammonia will be in the form of ammonium (NH4+), which is considered "non-toxic". I use quotes to emphasize that any ammonia in undesireable, regardless of speciation.

To give your LFS the benefit of the doubt, they deal with a lot of idiots who just want a "quick fix" and don't actually think about what's going on in their water. Kudos to you for being so astute! OTOH, there are no shortage of LFS's that actively try to sell snake oils to gullible customers, but the fact that they require a water sample prior to fish sales speaks in their favour.

 

[Roan Art]

. . .To give your LFS the benefit of the doubt, they deal with a lot of idiots who just want a "quick fix" and don't actually think about what's going on in their water. Kudos to you for being so astute! OTOH, there are no shortage of LFS's that actively try to sell snake oils to gullible customers, but the fact that they require a water sample prior to fish sales speaks in their favour.

Hrm, one more benefit to them --
they're probably used to people who don't do regular water changes and that may be the root of why they recommended you buffer your water. I think it's a little overkill on their part, but if they are dealing with the general uneducated aquaria public, actually rather smart IMO. Their reasoning may be that it's easier to make sure there's as little danger as possible than to try to get people to up their water changes. A lot of people don't wanna work on their tank or maintain it. They just want to have the fish and not do anything else.

Rationalizing further -- the time involved to check the water and dealing with you, the customer, versus the cost of the product they wanted to sell you doesn't add up to a big profit unless they were not busy or bored to tears. Ergo, I'm thinking I wanna know where this place is 'cause it sounds like it might be a pretty darn good LFS when you take all things into consideration.

Keep going to this place, double check what they tell you, and take it from there.

Roan

 

[jtruswell]

I actually do what Roan suggested with the crushed coral, but I just do it with shells at the bottom of the tank. I don't add many, maybe one or two smallish sized ones but they're decorative and do an excellent job buffering. I would think they'd be really good too if you had snails.

The trick is not to add too much. Too many shells can have a negative effect on the tank water. I would add smaller shells one at a time, leave them for a few days and check the parameters of the water. If you add too many at once, you may create another problem. The change they affect in your tank will be determined by your tank size and existing tank parameters. (ie. lower pH will dissolve the shells more quickly).

And to be honest, I'm amazed that the LFS asks for a water test before selling you fish. It's quite responsible for a fish vendor, especially since I imagine it cuts into their profits. Unless it's some commision thing with the buffer company (hence the lack of interest in the ammonia...) But I'm too pessimistic....

Anyway, best of luck! Oh, and I should add, beach shells are fine so long as you boil them to clean them, but IMO, stay clear of snail shells from ANYWHERE!!! I got some shells one time from a beach and a good handful were smaller snail shells. I boiled them four or five times and every time they gave the water this weird gelatinous scum. I gave up trying to clean them and stuck with the 'easy to clean' clam and oyster shells.

Ciao!

Jade

.

 

[Gena575]

(from Roan Art) If it concerns you, the best *temporary* course of action is to use baking soda to increase the KH/pH. Adding chemicals to the tank increases the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) of the water and should be avoided when at all possible. That includes the stuff the LFS was trying to sell you. For long term or "permanent" buffering, a handful of crushed coral and/or aragonite put in a sock or nylon stocking and placed in your filter will provide a permanent increase.

It does concern me, but mostly because my pH has dropped in spite of daily water changes of 30-50%. I hadn't been checking pH daily so I hadn't noticed it right off. The tank is a 10 gallon. Not sure if I mentioned that in the first post or not. As to the crush coral, my tap water has the same low kH/gH as my tank. If I go that route, will I need to buffer up the new water when I do water changes somehow? Or should I just do smaller ones more often? The LFS here doesn't carry crushed coral, so it will be at least the 23rd before I can get to a bigger store. Is that too long to use the baking soda method?

(from Happychem) In fact, it would only make things worse. Your pH/KH are more than adequate and the fact that your pH is slightly acidic is better than slightly basic when you have ammonia in the water. A lower pH means that a larger fraction of ammonia will be in the form of ammonium (NH4+), which is considered "non-toxic". I use quotes to emphasize that any ammonia in undesireable, regardless of speciation.

I understand the lower pH, less toxic ammonia connection, but my tap is slightly basic, 7.2 straight from the tap and after it has sat for 24 hours both untreated and treated for chlorine--I use Prime as my dechlor. It has just been within the last week or so that the drop to 6.8 has occured. Is this not something to be concerned about?

(from jtruswell)I actually do what Roan suggested with the crushed coral, but I just do it with shells at the bottom of the tank. I don't add many, maybe one or two smallish sized ones but they're decorative and do an excellent job buffering. I would think they'd be really good too if you had snails.

How do you handle your water changes? Do you age it with some crushed coral? Is the tank not far enough in pH/kH from your source that the small changes don't bother the fish much? I don't mind doing what is best for the fish, I just don't know what that is yet LOL!

And on the subject of my LFS, I do like them. They laughed at me when I told them I had baking soda at home and said it would do the exact same thing. They are very patient with me and I'm sure don't make a lot of money on the fish stuff. Their sales floor looks like the pictures of a lot of the fish rooms people have here. The owner is just a "old-school" kind of guy, but he cares that his fish are getting a good home. It is in Southern IL, Roan...a bit of a drive from VA LOL!!

 

[Roan Art]

It does concern me, but mostly because my pH has dropped in spite of daily water changes of 30-50%. I hadn't been checking pH daily so I hadn't noticed it right off. The tank is a 10 gallon. Not sure if I mentioned that in the first post or not. As to the crush coral, my tap water has the same low kH/gH as my tank. If I go that route, will I need to buffer up the new water when I do water changes somehow? Or should I just do smaller ones more often? The LFS here doesn't carry crushed coral, so it will be at least the 23rd before I can get to a bigger store. Is that too long to use the baking soda method?

Nah, read below.

I understand the lower pH, less toxic ammonia connection, but my tap is slightly basic, 7.2 straight from the tap and after it has sat for 24 hours both untreated and treated for chlorine--I use Prime as my dechlor. It has just been within the last week or so that the drop to 6.8 has occured. Is this not something to be concerned about?

Nopey dopey mopey

Many municipalities use phosphates et al to buffer the water and the drop in pH is the result of CO2 gassing off from the tap source. They never tell you when they start or stop doing that stuff. I hate that. I crashed one of my tanks finding this out. They went from the summer of 3 dKH to winter 1-2 dKH. I didn't know. Luckily I was using Bio Spira and had plenty on hand.

Smart of you to let it sit over night and then test it! Most people don't know to do that.

If your gassed off tap water matches or is very close to your tank water, you are totally golden without any buffers. Just keep an eye on stuff and test at least once every couple of weeks or if you do a water change and the pH is way lower than usual.

As happychem said: yah don't need 'em

How do you handle your water changes? Do you age it with some crushed coral? Is the tank not far enough in pH/kH from your source that the small changes don't bother the fish much? I don't mind doing what is best for the fish, I just don't know what that is yet LOL!

Nope. I throw water in with a Python.

My tap is 7.4 pH and 1-2 dKH and I use crushed coral in all my tanks, regardless if I inject CO2 into it or not. My CO2 injected tanks go from 6.4/6.6 to 7.2/7.4 when I put new water in. 'Tis all good. Fish don't really care about pH unless it's really extreme or they are subjected to constant swings. A water change wouldn't be classified as a constant swing. More like up and down all day type of thingy. As for the KH, it usually sits at 5-7 with CO2 injection and never falls further than 4 dKH after a 50% water change.

For the most part, the fish are more concerned about the hardness of the water, GH, than with pH or KH.

And on the subject of my LFS, I do like them. They laughed at me when I told them I had baking soda at home and said it would do the exact same thing. They are very patient with me and I'm sure don't make a lot of money on the fish stuff. Their sales floor looks like the pictures of a lot of the fish rooms people have here. The owner is just a "old-school" kind of guy, but he cares that his fish are getting a good home. It is in Southern IL, Roan...a bit of a drive from VA LOL!!

Sounds like a store I'd like to make friends with. Too bad it's so far away

Roan