Help Please - Peat "emergency"

[glassfish]

Hi all -

My softened tap water is ph=6.8. I recently switched over to R/O and store bought water (ph=6.0-6.6) because our tap water has high nitrates (we are on a well). My tank ph is consistently in the 8.0 range for both my 46-gal and my10-gal.

I was told by Foster&Smith that peat would be a good way to go for my freshwater tanks (tetras, khulis, platys, one gourami, cory cats, and otos) to get the ph to 6.5-7.0.

So I follow the Keta-Peat bottle directions. Both tanks were ph-8.0 to start.

Today, 12 hours later, the ph in the big tank = 7.0 and the small tank = 7.2! I am freaking out! I thought it would be a *gradual* change. Sigh.

So I pulled out the peat in the small tank (worried about dwarf corys) and half of the peat out of the big tank. A water change isn't going to help much, since my tap is 6.8.

Any ideas? The fish seem OK, but I can never find all of the Khulis...the two I see seem fine.

Other basic info:
-I removed the carbons when starting peat

-both tanks are planted -- I don't have CO2 injection, but use Flourish Excel

-I also add in R/O right for mineral replacement

-Nitrite=0, ammonia=0, nitrates=10ppm for both tanks

-both tanks have one small piece of driftwood for several weeks

-nothing else added to tanks

Thanks for any info...

 

[OrionGirl]

What was raising the pH in your tank? If both the tapwater and RO were lower, there must be something in the tanks that's raising it...
However, as long as it is stable, there's no real need to change it. Removing part of the peat will probably cause it to spike a bit--which is worse than just leaving it at the 7.2 Which ever way you decide--stick with one. The additives will all result in a sudden change when applied to the whole tank. It's better to modify the water used for changes, which will thne result in a more gradual shift.

 

[glassfish]

Thanks so much for your quick reply, OG!

Originally posted by OrionGirl
What was raising the pH in your tank? If both the tapwater and RO were lower, there must be something in the tanks that's raising it...

Good question! One that I have asked several people (including F&S fish tech) and all anyone says is just the "biological activity/fish wastes"? I don't know...

I don't have anything unusual in the tanks -- planted, big tank has epoxy gravel, and the small tank has small pebble aquarium gravel. One aquarium rock in big tank, one piece of Malaysian driftwood in each tank. That is it.

However, as long as it is stable, there's no real need to change it. Removing part of the peat will probably cause it to spike a bit--which is worse than just leaving it at the 7.2 Which ever way you decide--stick with one.

Well... the ph-8.0 is really high for tetas, isn't it? Many people are alarmed when I say that ph. Just want the optimal health for my fish. I'll put the peat back in, I guess... just less.

The additives will all result in a sudden change when applied to the whole tank. It's better to modify the water used for changes, which will thne result in a more gradual shift.

What additives do you mean - the Excel, R/O right, etc?

Janet

 

[JSchmidt]

Biological activity/fish wastes generally tend to LOWER pH because those processes produce acids (bioacidification). That's why neglected tanks tend to suffer pH crashes.

I would guess that your water has very little KH and is very susceptible to forces that change pH. Do you have any idea what your KH (and GH) is?

Jim

 

[glassfish]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
Biological activity/fish wastes generally tend to LOWER pH because those processes produce acids (bioacidification). That's why neglected tanks tend to suffer pH crashes.

I would guess that your water has very little KH and is very susceptible to forces that change pH. Do you have any idea what your KH (and GH) is?

Jim

Thanks for the info on bio activity, Jim. Makes sense...

I know that our water is hard in this area. We use softened R/O water for drinking water in our home. I have been purchasing Culligan water locally, and called the water dept -- the hardness is 13 grains. Not sure about the KH? (what is that?)

I also called Culligan - for the location in town where I purchase, they use an R/O and UV filter. No softener there. I called the R/O right people and asked about the water/dosing/hardness, etc. and even though the grains translated to the range of TDS that R/O right is going for, they weren't guaranteed to be the "correct" TDS for freshwater fish.

Ack... I am starting to confuse myself! :laugh:

So for now... both tanks have half of the Keta-Peat til I figure out what to do next. I will also be re-testing the ph soon.

Janet

 

[OrionGirl]

By additives I meant those specifically marketed to adjust pH. Most provide a temporary change that soon is depleted and the pH bounces back to it's previous level.

For most fish, a specific ph may be required for the fish to successfully reproduce, but have little impact on the well being of the juvenile and adult fish.

You may want to take out some of the gravel, and test it in 2 ways. First, the fizz test--pour a bit of vinegar on it and then listen closely for fizzing. If this happens, the gravel is the culprit of your increased pH. Also, put the gravel in some RO water in a glass, let it sit for a day or three, and re-test the pH. If it's altered, the rock is most likely the problem.

The pH of the water will not change dramatically, especially upward, without there being something that's acting on it.

 

[glassfish]

update - I just got off of the phone with the peat company...

Here is what I learned:

The ph of my tap probably isn't truly 6.8. The tap water is not exposed to air in the pipes and has a lot of CO2. This makes it artificially acidic. If left to aerate in an open bucket for 24 hours or so, the ph would likely be closer to my tank ph of 8.0. Interesting. I have only used water straight from the tap or closed containers, so I haven't tried measuring this out yet.

My fish have a range of preferred ph levels - Khulis are the lowest at 5.0, platys the highest at 8.0. The big danger with a sudden ph change is when you are shifting AWAY from the desired ph. A shift TO the desired ph is not as much of a problem. How are the fish? he asked. Well, fine.

Fish will have shorter lifespans, duller colors, and less spawning activity at non-optimal ph levels.

I could have something in my tank (gravel?) that is fighting the ph, meaning that when I pull the peat, it could go back up again. So I will pull the peat since I am good with the 7.0 measurement and retest my ph several times a day to monitor. Best to pre-treat incoming water with peat.

So the above info is FYI to anyone interested in peat! One thing I am learning is that everyone has an opinion, and I do try to gather from as many sources as possible...

OG -

Thanks for the info on checking my gravel! Great idea, since I was wondering how I could rule that out as far as raising ph...

Janet

 

[happychem]

Also, put the gravel in some RO water in a glass, let it sit for a day or three, and re-test the pH. If it's altered, the rock is most likely the problem

Also, take some water from each source you use and follow the same procedure. After a few days, test the pH. Might as well rule out CO2 equilibrium while we're at it.

CO2 is slow to equilibrate between air and water. As such, live plants can bring pH upwards by consuming CO2. When the plants take CO2 from the water, the carbonate equilibrium will shift, consuming H+, raising pH. This is possible even though you're dosing Excel, as soon as the carbon from the excel is consumed, the plants will turn to CO2.

 

[OrionGirl]

Sorry, but I disagree that the pH will shorten the life of a fish if it is not optimal. I have kuhli loaches that are breeding like mad (I honestly can't count how many there are any more) in a tank that's around 7.2--indicating than even pH compromising egg development isn't always true. One of mine is currently 5 years old, and still a brilliantly striped orange and black--very healthy.

Of course, this is just my experience. I don't market any additives, so have no stake in it.

Their comment about the pH changing after coming out of the pipes is true--but i was under the impression that this primarily was true for those on city water, rather than wells. Definitely worth testing the water after it has sat out in a open container (a shallow bowl is best) or after 20-30 minutes vigorous aeration.

 

[happychem]

That and constant conditions are more important than 'proper' conditions.

The shallow bowl method is much better than the glass for a few days. I just figured that if you were going to be testing the gravel that way, you chould have a control.