HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter ducatigirl
- Start date
I agree that I don't like to prolong suffering, if it seems there's no improvement or it seems unlikely that there will be improvement, here's some info on humane euthanasia, an upleasant task but an act of compassion when you feel it's time. This article on the subject was written by one of our AC members.
03-28-2008, 11:52 AM #1 ct-death
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Euthanasia
First, I did not plan on having this Topic become my first article; however, I have seen many posts ask about, ‘How do you humanely euthanize a fish?’ Many of those same threads provide differing opinions on not only the methods to employ but also to its necessity…
Myths: “Fish can’t feel pain right?”
This is a very common question, and myth, but more often than not I have found that most are simply looking for some sense of reassurance that what they are proposing to do is ethically/morally okay. The truth is, however, that of course they feel pain. Fish have an intricate nervous-system, but we often don't readily see the signs of distress because fish lack the facial responses and expressions we readily associate with pain and fear typical in most animals. The reality is, if you're observant to the signs, many fish noticeably exhibit either behavioral or physical signs of affliction when they're distressed or in pain (ie. vigorous and often violent movements; color-shifts, often fading or paling in nature; and changes in normal social and other behavioral activities are all clues to their distress). Many of these same symptoms we actively use in our hobby to discover wounds, diseases or other ailments earlier than we perhaps would otherwise.
What is it, and Why do it?
euthanasia (yū'thə-nā'zhə, -zhē-ə) n.
Greek, meaning “Good Death”.
“Euthanasia is the practice of ending the life of a human or animal who is incurably ill in a painless or minimally painful way, for the purpose of limiting suffering. Laws around the world vary greatly with regard to euthanasia, and are constantly subject to change as cultural values shift and better palliative care, or treatments become available.”
How do I know if my fish needs to be Euthanized?
Reasons for Euthanizing a Fish –
I would like to preface this section simply by saying that many methods are in use and that most are controversial (as is the very notion of Euthanizing), but I have only tried to list those methods deem ‘acceptable’ by most and would be considered common practices. Certainly others exist…
Freezing –
Correct Approach is to place a bowl of water into a freezer and let stand until a thin crust of ice has formed. The ice should be sufficiently formed to require one to break threw the surface. The goal is to ideally reach a Fahrenheit temperature of 29 degrees (or less). Once achieved, a fish may be placed in the bowl. Nearly instant, it is a very quick and efficient method by most accounts.
Alcohol – Is not an approved method on its own (See Clove Oil).
Clove Oil – Perhaps the most commonly employed method and very economical. This method is an anesthetic-like approach in that the Clove Oil is used first to place a fish under sleep. Ethanol-based alcohol is then utilized to euthanize the fish after the fish is unconscious.
- A Common Mistake is to mix both the clove and alcohol together, or to use a non-clear, non-grained, alcohol (colored alcohols, such as whiskeys, are not allowed to fully ferment and are thus not approved due to lack of ethanol concentrations).
ALSO - Isopropyl or rubbing alcohol is not to be used.
- Alcohol used should be clear in nature and grain-based (commonly known as ethyl or ethanol) such as a Vodka. Although effective, vodka is still diluted, and the concentration of ethanol is deliberately reduced (25% alcohol of the total water volume is typically recommended).
- Note: Clove Oil is also lethal in 5-6x the recommended concentrations (ie. 50-60 drops per US Gallon). Also, please note; it is recommended that the fish is first placed under prior to spiking the concentrations to lethal doses.
Clove Method How-To: (Fish up to 3”)
1. Using a small clean container, filled with tank water, add approx. 1 drop of clove oil per 24oz.*, and shake vigorously. The clove oil must emulsify (will turn the water a milky white). *Remember the amount of water you use (needed for alcohol concentration below).
2. Add the fish, and check back in about 10-15 minutes. If the fish is still swimming occasionally, pre-mix a small amount of clove-oil and add this to the container. Wait again.
3. Add 20-25% volume of grain alcohol. For example, if the fish is in 8oz (240ml) of water, add 2oz (60ml) of vodka.
4. Check the fish carefully after 20 minutes. If there is no sign of gill movement after a minute, the fish has expired.
*(Fish over 3”+) Follow the above instruction, but increase the Clove Oil concentrations to 10 drops per US Gallon (or 1 drop per 13oz).
You must ask for pure Clove oil, which can be found at health food stores or the pharmacy. Ask the pharmacist for eugenol, which is another name for it. Don't ask a clerk or worked as they will likely take you to the toothache section where they may suggest Anbesol, or Oragel. These remedies have clove oil, but also other ingredients that can be irritating or harsh.
Anesthetic – By far and away the most humane is through the use of anesthetics. Many of our LFS and on-line aquarium providers offer this solution. The most commonly used product is commercially named, Finquel (Link for convenience: Finquel Aquatic Anesthetic). From this, any of the Methods already discussed may be used, or one can simply apply the recommended dose, wait for sedation, and then spike with approximately 3-4x the dose. The effect is the fish calmly falls to sleep, and the increased concentration simply stops their heart. No suffering.
Methods NOT Approved:
First, let me be perfectly clear that these are NOT Methods of choice, nor offer a humane approach! Secondly, I am listing these so that I can be clear on the intent for this Article, and dispel ANY notion that these can be considered humane.
Frankly, as an Aquarium Hobbyist, your first obligation is to the animals we have taken the responsibility to care for, and as such, I feel it is something we have willingly accepted the responsibility to perform in the most humane manner possible. ‘Until death do us part’, if you will.
Club or Smash – I could also include the “Blender” approach here as well for it’s shear brutality… For most, the potential loss of a pet is very traumatic, and ensuring the quick and stable hand required for this approach is hopeful at best, especially to those not only unwilling, but (hopefully) novices to this barbaric approach. Simply, too many things can go wrong, and with so many other humane approaches available there is simply no excuse to employ this method.
Flushing (Live) Fish – What can I say? Well, first off, this will not kill your fish – At least not quickly or painlessly. Taking a living fish plopping them into a bacteria infested, chlorinated toilet bowl, and pushing a lever to flush a fish simply guarantees two things: 1) That the fish will suffer a long time while it is slowly suffocated and poisoned, and 2) it ensures that the fish is “Out-of-sight, and Out-of-mind”.
Freezing (Live) Fish – There is a right and a wrong way to “Freeze a Fish.” Fish are very sensitive to temperature changes, and a few degrees can easily send a healthy fish into shock (See: Methods Approved for the ‘Right’ procedure)
Wrong Approach is to simply place an ailing fish into a bowl of water and place them into a freezer. Many employ this technique as it ‘appears’ placid. However, the reality is they are freezing to-death much like you or I would. The thrashing and ‘signs of agony’ are absent because their metabolism is shutting down, their bodily functions begin to slow dramatically, and blood recedes into their core in their futile attempt for survival. Eventually, they slip into a sleep, and die. How long does it take to make ice?
Alcohol – Is not an approved method on its own (See Clove Oil). The cause of death is by alcohol poisoning.
I hope this article can be used as a resource to more humanely address this issue. The When and Why I will leave largely up to you...
I have highlighted in blue, the points in the original text that I feel are especially helpful, and details the technique I have used, (although I don't use the alcohol, vodka, for the coup de gras, I use the lethal dose of clove oil to ensure death
Additional comments by me added in red fonts.
I hope this will be helpful, should you need to end the fish's suffering.
Fish & Visitors Smell in 3 Days...
Usergroup: AC Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New Hampshire
Last Activity: Yesterday 11:54 AM
Marketplace Feedback: (1)
Posts: 2,209
Private Message
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EUTHANASIA
First, I did not plan on having this Topic become my first article; however, I have seen many posts ask about, ‘How do you humanely euthanize a fish?’ Many of those same threads provide differing opinions on not only the methods to employ but also to its necessity…
Myths: “Fish can’t feel pain right?”
This is a very common question, and myth, but more often than not I have found that most are simply looking for some sense of reassurance that what they are proposing to do is ethically/morally okay. The truth is, however, that of course they feel pain. Fish have an intricate nervous-system, but we often don't readily see the signs of distress because fish lack the facial responses and expressions we readily associate with pain and fear typical in most animals. The reality is, if you're observant to the signs, many fish noticeably exhibit either behavioral or physical signs of affliction when they're distressed or in pain (ie. vigorous and often violent movements; color-shifts, often fading or paling in nature; and changes in normal social and other behavioral activities are all clues to their distress). Many of these same symptoms we actively use in our hobby to discover wounds, diseases or other ailments earlier than we perhaps would otherwise.
What is it, and Why do it?
euthanasia (yū'thə-nā'zhə, -zhē-ə) n.
Greek, meaning “Good Death”.
“Euthanasia is the practice of ending the life of a human or animal who is incurably ill in a painless or minimally painful way, for the purpose of limiting suffering. Laws around the world vary greatly with regard to euthanasia, and are constantly subject to change as cultural values shift and better palliative care, or treatments become available.”
- Reference: Wikipedia
How do I know if my fish needs to be Euthanized?
Reasons for Euthanizing a Fish –
- Irreversible Disease - Cannot be treated, such as Cancer
- Major Injury - Fish cannot survive on own
- Suffering – Non-treatable ailment (i.e. In some cases; old age)
- Culling
- Fish outgrows it’s environment, or is inappropriate for your setup
- Fish becomes aggressive towards other tank-mates
- Lose interest
- Moving, or desire to change your tank
- Any other reason given that is correctable or the cause of the owner
I would like to preface this section simply by saying that many methods are in use and that most are controversial (as is the very notion of Euthanizing), but I have only tried to list those methods deem ‘acceptable’ by most and would be considered common practices. Certainly others exist…
Freezing –
Correct Approach is to place a bowl of water into a freezer and let stand until a thin crust of ice has formed. The ice should be sufficiently formed to require one to break threw the surface. The goal is to ideally reach a Fahrenheit temperature of 29 degrees (or less). Once achieved, a fish may be placed in the bowl. Nearly instant, it is a very quick and efficient method by most accounts.
Alcohol – Is not an approved method on its own (See Clove Oil).
Clove Oil – Perhaps the most commonly employed method and very economical. This method is an anesthetic-like approach in that the Clove Oil is used first to place a fish under sleep. Ethanol-based alcohol is then utilized to euthanize the fish after the fish is unconscious.
- A Common Mistake is to mix both the clove and alcohol together, or to use a non-clear, non-grained, alcohol (colored alcohols, such as whiskeys, are not allowed to fully ferment and are thus not approved due to lack of ethanol concentrations).
ALSO - Isopropyl or rubbing alcohol is not to be used.
- Alcohol used should be clear in nature and grain-based (commonly known as ethyl or ethanol) such as a Vodka. Although effective, vodka is still diluted, and the concentration of ethanol is deliberately reduced (25% alcohol of the total water volume is typically recommended).
- Note: Clove Oil is also lethal in 5-6x the recommended concentrations (ie. 50-60 drops per US Gallon). Also, please note; it is recommended that the fish is first placed under prior to spiking the concentrations to lethal doses.
Clove Method How-To: (Fish up to 3”)
1. Using a small clean container, filled with tank water, add approx. 1 drop of clove oil per 24oz.*, and shake vigorously. The clove oil must emulsify (will turn the water a milky white). *Remember the amount of water you use (needed for alcohol concentration below).
2. Add the fish, and check back in about 10-15 minutes. If the fish is still swimming occasionally, pre-mix a small amount of clove-oil and add this to the container. Wait again.
3. Add 20-25% volume of grain alcohol. For example, if the fish is in 8oz (240ml) of water, add 2oz (60ml) of vodka.
4. Check the fish carefully after 20 minutes. If there is no sign of gill movement after a minute, the fish has expired.
*(Fish over 3”+) Follow the above instruction, but increase the Clove Oil concentrations to 10 drops per US Gallon (or 1 drop per 13oz).
You must ask for pure Clove oil, which can be found at health food stores or the pharmacy. Ask the pharmacist for eugenol, which is another name for it. Don't ask a clerk or worked as they will likely take you to the toothache section where they may suggest Anbesol, or Oragel. These remedies have clove oil, but also other ingredients that can be irritating or harsh.
- Reference: Wisegeek & Aquaria Central
Anesthetic – By far and away the most humane is through the use of anesthetics. Many of our LFS and on-line aquarium providers offer this solution. The most commonly used product is commercially named, Finquel (Link for convenience: Finquel Aquatic Anesthetic). From this, any of the Methods already discussed may be used, or one can simply apply the recommended dose, wait for sedation, and then spike with approximately 3-4x the dose. The effect is the fish calmly falls to sleep, and the increased concentration simply stops their heart. No suffering.
Methods NOT Approved:
First, let me be perfectly clear that these are NOT Methods of choice, nor offer a humane approach! Secondly, I am listing these so that I can be clear on the intent for this Article, and dispel ANY notion that these can be considered humane.
Frankly, as an Aquarium Hobbyist, your first obligation is to the animals we have taken the responsibility to care for, and as such, I feel it is something we have willingly accepted the responsibility to perform in the most humane manner possible. ‘Until death do us part’, if you will.
Club or Smash – I could also include the “Blender” approach here as well for it’s shear brutality… For most, the potential loss of a pet is very traumatic, and ensuring the quick and stable hand required for this approach is hopeful at best, especially to those not only unwilling, but (hopefully) novices to this barbaric approach. Simply, too many things can go wrong, and with so many other humane approaches available there is simply no excuse to employ this method.
Flushing (Live) Fish – What can I say? Well, first off, this will not kill your fish – At least not quickly or painlessly. Taking a living fish plopping them into a bacteria infested, chlorinated toilet bowl, and pushing a lever to flush a fish simply guarantees two things: 1) That the fish will suffer a long time while it is slowly suffocated and poisoned, and 2) it ensures that the fish is “Out-of-sight, and Out-of-mind”.
Freezing (Live) Fish – There is a right and a wrong way to “Freeze a Fish.” Fish are very sensitive to temperature changes, and a few degrees can easily send a healthy fish into shock (See: Methods Approved for the ‘Right’ procedure)
Wrong Approach is to simply place an ailing fish into a bowl of water and place them into a freezer. Many employ this technique as it ‘appears’ placid. However, the reality is they are freezing to-death much like you or I would. The thrashing and ‘signs of agony’ are absent because their metabolism is shutting down, their bodily functions begin to slow dramatically, and blood recedes into their core in their futile attempt for survival. Eventually, they slip into a sleep, and die. How long does it take to make ice?
Alcohol – Is not an approved method on its own (See Clove Oil). The cause of death is by alcohol poisoning.
I hope this article can be used as a resource to more humanely address this issue. The When and Why I will leave largely up to you...
I have highlighted in blue, the points in the original text that I feel are especially helpful, and details the technique I have used, (although I don't use the alcohol, vodka, for the coup de gras, I use the lethal dose of clove oil to ensure death
Additional comments by me added in red fonts.
I hope this will be helpful, should you need to end the fish's suffering.
He didn't make it.
It was the tank change I'm sure. Think I did more harm than good
A learning experience anyway. Thanks for all your help guys n gals
It was the tank change I'm sure. Think I did more harm than good
A learning experience anyway. Thanks for all your help guys n gals
Thanks for this.
I do have a housing dilemma, maybe you can advise?
I have a 310 ltr tank (4ft)
A 300 ltr (6ft)
A 150 ltr (3ft)
A 46 ltr
A corner tank 60 ltr
To house...
A 8-9"" pair of goldsaums
1 x 8"catfish
1 x 3-4" chipokae
3 x silver saums 3-4"
3 algae eaters 3"
and this fish...I moved from the chipokae's agro. Is this the kribensis?
Sorry for quality, as its very dark fish not sure if its a saum.
Should I put the chipokae in its own tank? i notice these fish have bite marks (an electric yellow was also housed together, it had bite marks so I moved it)
I only got these last lot yesterday. But they were all housed together.
Sorry about the fish. Didn't have much of a chance, it incurred some serious damage somehow. When fish lie on the bottom like that, it's usually rare for them to get better. At least that's been my experience.
Oh no, kribensis is a different fish altogether...I just thought that since you had angelfish and seemingly an interest in cichlids, this might be one for you to try. It could go in a tank full of livebearers and an angel, granted you won't see many livebearer fry. Here's a picture of a pair, all colored up from breeding, with fry:
http://www.rachelmoanamcara.com/Kribensis.jpg
Do you not have a way of trading in fish at a local fish store? Because that would surely be the easiest way to unload these incompatible fish. Which ones did you say you wanted to keep again?
I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to American cichlid IDs, except for the more common ones. That picture would be difficult I think for even an expert to get an ID since you can't make out many of the characteristics. Try this gallery:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/new_world_cichlid_genus_gallery.php
When you say "algae eater" do you mean like a pleco or Chinese algae eater?
Pleco: http://www.biocrawler.com/w/images/7/71/Plecostomus_700.jpg
CAE: http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fishimages/2108_algae_loach.jpg
Keep in mind neither of these fish are especially great at eating algae as they get larger, they both get big and can be aggressive - with each other especially - and they can't just scavenge, they will require their own foods so when you think about it, they are adding more pollution to the tank, not making it cleaner.
Catfish that get that big are very often predatory and nocturnal. Do you have a pic of the catfish? Maybe someone could ID it for you, but don't be surprised if this fish eats other fish.
I would recommend you stock it like this for now:
310 ltr tank (4ft) - 8"catfish
A 300 ltr (6ft) - 8-9"" pair of goldsaums
A 150 ltr (3ft) - 3 x silver saums 3-4"
A 46 ltr - 3 algae eaters 3"
A corner tank 60 ltr - 1 x 3-4" chipokae
Depending on what kind of algae eaters these are, you might be able to put them in with some of the other fish, like maybe one with the M. chipokae...although I had no luck whatsoever combining plecos with mbuna (another word for Lake Malawi cichlid, a type of African cichlid) - although I did keep yellow labs with a golden Chinese algae eater.
Anyone else have any ideas about how to house these fish?
Oh no, kribensis is a different fish altogether...I just thought that since you had angelfish and seemingly an interest in cichlids, this might be one for you to try. It could go in a tank full of livebearers and an angel, granted you won't see many livebearer fry. Here's a picture of a pair, all colored up from breeding, with fry:
http://www.rachelmoanamcara.com/Kribensis.jpg
Do you not have a way of trading in fish at a local fish store? Because that would surely be the easiest way to unload these incompatible fish. Which ones did you say you wanted to keep again?
I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to American cichlid IDs, except for the more common ones. That picture would be difficult I think for even an expert to get an ID since you can't make out many of the characteristics. Try this gallery:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/new_world_cichlid_genus_gallery.php
When you say "algae eater" do you mean like a pleco or Chinese algae eater?
Pleco: http://www.biocrawler.com/w/images/7/71/Plecostomus_700.jpg
CAE: http://www.thinkfish.co.uk/fishimages/2108_algae_loach.jpg
Keep in mind neither of these fish are especially great at eating algae as they get larger, they both get big and can be aggressive - with each other especially - and they can't just scavenge, they will require their own foods so when you think about it, they are adding more pollution to the tank, not making it cleaner.
Catfish that get that big are very often predatory and nocturnal. Do you have a pic of the catfish? Maybe someone could ID it for you, but don't be surprised if this fish eats other fish.
I would recommend you stock it like this for now:
310 ltr tank (4ft) - 8"catfish
A 300 ltr (6ft) - 8-9"" pair of goldsaums
A 150 ltr (3ft) - 3 x silver saums 3-4"
A 46 ltr - 3 algae eaters 3"
A corner tank 60 ltr - 1 x 3-4" chipokae
Depending on what kind of algae eaters these are, you might be able to put them in with some of the other fish, like maybe one with the M. chipokae...although I had no luck whatsoever combining plecos with mbuna (another word for Lake Malawi cichlid, a type of African cichlid) - although I did keep yellow labs with a golden Chinese algae eater.
Anyone else have any ideas about how to house these fish?
thanks very much Platy
Mmm unreal that the previous owner had these mismatched fish together.
I;ve now had a better look at the catfish, and I'm suspecting it has a mouth problem, like the banded fish.It's raw looking and red.
This catfish is black with a leopard print, big spike, with ears, and big whiskers.lol /none of the photos look like it, and I have tried to search to match it.
You have given great info in your post. I'd like to respond a bit better later.
It would be good to sell the fish and put my angels in the 6ft long tank.
I dont really like these cichlids, just acquired them.
Mmm unreal that the previous owner had these mismatched fish together.
I;ve now had a better look at the catfish, and I'm suspecting it has a mouth problem, like the banded fish.It's raw looking and red.
This catfish is black with a leopard print, big spike, with ears, and big whiskers.lol /none of the photos look like it, and I have tried to search to match it.
You have given great info in your post. I'd like to respond a bit better later.
It would be good to sell the fish and put my angels in the 6ft long tank.
I dont really like these cichlids, just acquired them.
Try treating the fish with the mouth problem with Bactonex and tea tree oil - in an empty tank if you can, since often times medication will give you ammonia spikes from hurting the beneficial bacteria (although it's only the harshest of meds, like Formalin and Malachite green, which tend to cause tanks to become completely "uncycled")
I do think it's a bacterial infection, these are typically caused by Aeromonas or Pseudomonas bacteria and are related to dirty water. I can bet you that the previous owner wasn't taking meticulous care of their fish, given the thoughtless stocking. In any case, a broad spectrum antibiotic should help, and keeping the water very clean. Tea tree oil (Melafix) sometimes helps with mild cases.
Since these tanks are newly [re]set up, you might have some ammonia or nitrite registering - good to test just to make sure. Use an ammonia binding chemical such as Ammo Lock, Amquel or a double dose of Prime if it turns out ammonia is registering - fish can't recover properly in water that isn't ammonia and nitrite free.
Good luck!
I do think it's a bacterial infection, these are typically caused by Aeromonas or Pseudomonas bacteria and are related to dirty water. I can bet you that the previous owner wasn't taking meticulous care of their fish, given the thoughtless stocking. In any case, a broad spectrum antibiotic should help, and keeping the water very clean. Tea tree oil (Melafix) sometimes helps with mild cases.
Since these tanks are newly [re]set up, you might have some ammonia or nitrite registering - good to test just to make sure. Use an ammonia binding chemical such as Ammo Lock, Amquel or a double dose of Prime if it turns out ammonia is registering - fish can't recover properly in water that isn't ammonia and nitrite free.
Good luck!
