I hope this doesn't sound crazy

lethalp

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Jan 1, 2003
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I posted a thread earlier today about fishless cycling. Most of the day I spent looking a various articles and books trying to figure this out. Putting amonia in a tank seems strange to me I guess. As I stated in my original post, I have a brand new 29g tank. I also have the 2, 2.5g tanks. Can I tank small amounts of water from those tanks to help the new 29g tank cycle? Should I do anything with the filters I have in the smaller ones? I mean like take them and put them in the new one for a bit? I have already taken some of the gravel out and put it in. If I shouldn't take the filters out of the small ones, should I take the carbon filter out of the new one for awhile. Its been on and running for about 24hrs now. The water that was a bit yellow last night has cleared signifigantly. Oh and on the heater, should I be heating the water to any certain temp? Or should it be on at all? I am also getting confused on the type of tank I can have. I have 8.6 ph water, so I am still assuming I will be somewhat limited. Amazonian or African, or can I manipulate the tank to something else. Yes folks the dog trainer it stumped again, please give me some insight guys :confused:
 
You should have your water around 78 degrees. Since you already put gravel from the other tanks in the filter, then just continue with the fishless cycle. Why does putting ammonia in the tank seem strange to you. When fish produce waste, it is ammonia. Nothin strange about it. You put clear ammonia in the tank now so that you have an ammonia sorce and the tank can cycle. If you didn't put in ammonia and did put any fish in, then there wouldn't be any source of ammonia. The gravel from the other tanks helps speed up the cycle.

HTH
 
more........

Ok, I will try the amonia, but how much and how often? ANd what about the water and the filters and such?
 
The first time, keep adding until you take a test and it reads 5ppm. I would suggest adding a few teaspoons at first, then testing so you know how many teaspoons makes 1ppm. Then, after you get it to 5ppm, you take a test the next day. If the ammonia is less then 5ppm, then you add more so that it goes up to 5ppm. You keep doing this until when you add 5ppm ammonia one day, and the next day you test and the ammonia and nitrites are 0.

HTH
 
I'll agree that it seems a little strange to be ladling ammonia into a fish tank, but as NJ D. points out it is chemically the same stuff as the fish are putting in themselves: NH3 and NH4.

The concentrations available may vary so everyone has to work out their own dosing. You need plain simple ammonia, no detergents or fragrances or extras -- if you give "clear ammonia" a shake you'll see some bubbles that will clear in a couple of seconds, if it suds up like dishsoap its no good. Soap, windex, all that sort of thing, is highly toxic to fish. You want to put enough ammonia in to get the concentration up to about 5ppm. In my case, on my 30g, this was about .5 tspn. Retest the ammonia each day and add enough to boost back up to 5ppm. You probably won't need to add any the first few days, but after a week or so you'll be back to the original dose. This is the ammonia spike. You'll start seeing nitrItes at this same time. Opinions vary on whether to maintain the dosage at this point, or to cut it in half. Continue until the nitrItes also can zero themselves out in a day and your done. :cool: One good size water change (say 75%) and you're ready to stock. One virtue of fishless is that you have a fully grown colony, so you can stock fully right away -- I added everyone over the course of about a week. I've had one death so far, and I think it was aggression rather than chemistry.

Heat is good for this -- set your heater for the temperature you plan on keeping the tank at, or even a little higher. The metabolism, and growth, of the bacteria will be slower at cooler temps.

The bacteria live on everything -- they don't live free floating in the water. Water changes won't hurt, just like tank water won't help. Some gravel from a cycled tank (just the top layer, maybe the first half-inch) will help. These bacteria are aerobic, so burying them will kill them -- seed gravel goes in last. You don't need a whole lot. Mature filter media will also help. There are two different types of bacteria, one that handles the ammonia conversion and another that handles the nitrIte conversion. The nitrIte-to-nitrAte bacteria may suffer during the first spike, so a second seeding at the beginning of the nitrIte spike may also help speed things along. I think I saw a thread earlier where someone reported finishing in a little over two weeks -- I took a month. It varies, but the seeding will help.

8.6 is rock hard water, so it will limit you somewhat. It seems easier to naturally increase the pH than it does to lower it. You can use chemicals, but the local consensus is that they need constant attention and maintenance and are prone to instability. Fish can live somewhat outside their native range -- having the pH bounce up and down (like at water changes) is bad for them.

Some folks will say that the fish are adaptable, but I dislike asking them to stretch too far. For one thing, your not going to see the coloration and behavior as well if the fish aren't comfortable. You don't have to be spot on, but you should be close. There is a difference between tolerating and thriving.

I personally am attracted to the biotope idea, other folks just want a nice community and that's fine too. I try not to beat the drum too loudly, but occasionally I like to give it a thump. One of the things that originally attracted me to it was my extreme water -- my tap is pH 6 or so (near the low end of the low test, hard to be sure). People in the middle can do whatever they want and most fish will be fine. I can't keep hardwater fish without making adjustments for them. Same for you and softwater fish. Mongabay gives nices synopses of what fish live in different types of water around the world. Feel free to mix and match as you see fit, but you'd probably be best served looking at Central America, India/Burma, Zaire, and maybe Australia. The Rift Lake cichlids are very beautiful fish but are generally larger, aggressive and territorial, and are generally not mixed with other types of fish. There are some smaller ones and some relatively peaceful ones, but they'll need some research. The Amazon and SE Asia are generally too soft and acidic (and, unfortunately, are home to a lot of the smaller more common fish).

Fishbase.org has the skinny on pretty much any fish you'll ever come across, including native temp and water hardness ranges. Its a science site. The findex at NotCatFish.com is also a good place to check.
 
Actually, I don't see any point in cutting the dose in half once you get nitrite readings. Doing this only makes your bio-load smaller which you don't really want.
 
Like I said, opinions vary on the cutting the dosage in half thing. Richer, NJ Devils Fan, and other well-respected members don't and have been successful. The original Chris Cow article has the recommendation. If its bad for the nitrIte-eaters why start with 5ppm in the first place, only to shrink it down later? I think you'll have a healthy colony at 3 or at 5, so why not just dose to 3 throughout (5 is obviously bigger)? I confess I don't really see the logic to it myself.
 
I have fishlessly cycled quite a few tanks, and I dose to 5 ppm from start to finish. I'm not sure what the logic of cutting the dose to half is, either. If anything, I'd be more concerned about higher concentrations of ammonia early on, because of so many reports that higher ammonia levels inhibit the second stage (nitrite-eating) bacteria.

Any, FWIW, I use 5 ppm for the entire cycling period and my cycling times seem to be on par with what others have reported.

Jim
 
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