Ph problem...

[Xielos]

Where I live I have very hard water (don't have a hardness test, but wherever water dries it leaves raised water marks, you can scrape them off). The ph out of my tap is 7.6ish, but I tested the ph in my tank today and it was 6.0, may have even been under the scale. The thing is I tested the water a few days ago and it was at 6.8, and I havn't done anything to the tank in weeks. No water changes, no new decorations, all I've been doing is feeding the tank ammonia for my fishless cylce. The cycle is already completed, I'm just adding in ammonia to keep the bacteria alive now. I have been cycling the tank for around 3 weeks so far. The tanks has gravel, a small piece of slate, some large peices of driftwood and a terra-cotta Aztec calander. My fish are coming Friday, so I have to do the endcycle water change still.

Should I do the water change on Thursday or even Wednesday to wait out the ph crash? How am I going to do water changes with such large differences in ph? So confused :thud:

 

[RTR]

There is your problem. You have not been doing any water changes and the high levels of nitrification have burned up your KH. Do at least a couple of 50% changes to get your water back at least near tap water conditions. If you don't do this before your fish arrive, you biofilter may be damged or die from the pH crash, and then your fish will be endangered as well from osmotic shock/OTS.

Have you checked the nitrate or the KH levels? I'd bet on the first being very high and the second very low.

 

[Xielos]

I know my Nitrates are very high, but I was told not to do any water changes during a fishless cycle untill right before you add the fish. I didn't know high amount of nitrates could do that . I'll do a 50% change tomorrow when I get home from school. Might as well pick up a kh/gh test on the way home as well.

 

[indiginess]

heres what i would do

listen to RTR, but there is a viable alternative to waterchanges for the moment

if the 7.6 is what you want for your pH, then add some baking soda (Arm n Hammer or substitute) in tablespoon increments until you see pH changes. baking soda is sodium bicarbonate and will directly increase KH... KH stands for carbonic hardness loosely (think is german in origin). the -CO3 ion is what youre after.

sodium bicarbonate will also buffer a system to ~7.8 as well

new driftwood could be another major factor in your pH crash, besides the chemical depletion mentioned by RTR. wood that is relatively new to water will lower pH by releasing tannins into the water. tannins color water as well as forming tannic acid in solution (in water), thus lowering the pH. i'm assuming you know the relationship of acids, bases an pH.

Baking soda is pure magic when it comes to solving pH and KH problems when increasing is the goal. just dissolve some in water, add it to the filter stream, wait ten, test, and go from there

also... to avoid this problem in the future, and you are ok with a pH in the mid to high 7's, go pick up a bag of crushed coral (usually in the marine sections) and mix some into your substrate. it will supply constant KH and buffer your system against future crashes. limestone works too, though not quite as fast. both are calcium carbonate (notice the carbonate component).

with the baking soda, id start with a teaspoon per 5 gallons and go from there. remember to subtract from the tanks empty volume.. i.e. a thirty gal probably is only 27 in water........

don't mean to be too remedial, but you never know where someone is starting from. i love water chemistry, so fire away. PM me if you want. if i don't know, i'd love to find out.

good luck

eric


edit: baking soda, NOT baking powder... easy mistake but bad one
baking soda has absolutely no ill effects on fish if its disolved in water first, the only effect would be its effect on pH (desired) and the grit of the powder itself, which is solved by dissolving in water first

 

[RTR]

Anyone who suggests broad-brush solutions such as not doing water changes during cycling, whether fishy or fishless, is exposing their complete lack of understanding of water chemistry. You are adding materials to you water constantly (fishfood or ammonia, depending on the type of cycle) and that material is oxidized and the end products remain, while the carbonates and bicarbonates are depleted and the TDS of the water is increased while the pH/KH decline. Where is the rationale for that advice? Your water every day becomes more distant from the water source you use and less able to support healthy life, whether it is bacteria, or fish and bacteria.

Monitor you KH and nitrate and partial the water as needed. That will not harm the cycle, the bacteria, or the fish if present. Quite the opposite in fact, it will keep the tank more hospitable to all of those. Not changing the water is really distorting your water's chemistry. Attempting to counteract that by adding other materials (futher increasing the TDS) will push your tank into Old Tank Syndrome* before you even have any fish in it.

If hobbyists would learn to keep their water as close as possible to their source water (tap or whatever they use for setup and replacement), the "help needed" post load on this and other hobby forums would drop faster than the pH during cycling. This is not a rant aimed at you - you are asking valid and valuable questions on things you need to know now and for the future, but more at the sort of horrible advice given so often to novices, based on the myth that there is somthing undesirable about fresh water. I do not understand that position at all, nor how anyone could come to such conclusions.

*http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/small/ots.html
http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/water/otswater.html

 

[Xielos]

Thanks for your replies, now that I think about it, it makes sense. Hindsight is 20/20 I suppose. I'll pick up that gk/kh test today on my way home and do a water change. Hope I'm not too late :sad:

 

[patoloco]

Hi there. You got two very good answer there, but I'd rather stick to RTR remedy. You best way to achive constant water chemistry is by periodic water changes.

Don't want to argue here, but using baking soda or other chemichal will co$t you more money and you will have a LOT more stuff to be taking care of. If you go too high in your soda, you'll get too hard and you'll need an inmediate water change, for instance.

The easiest way (both for aquarist and fish) is to maintain your water tank's chemistry a close as posible to source water (normally, tap water). This way you'll always keep a normalized enviroment to your fish and your expesnse will not be as high.

When I begun this hobby I had, beside my test kit, a PH raiser, a PH decreaser, a Ph stabilizer, a cycling product, and other stuff. Now, you'll only see the dechlorinator. It's all you need.

Make the water changes a routine. Monitor your chemistry and you'll find out that constant water changes and filter mainteinance will keep your tank stable.

Also, do a check the chemistry of your tap water from time to time to make sure it's coming right.

See ya

 

[indiginess]

the rant was aimed at me, xielos, and like i said, listen to RTR's advice

and i must defend myself a little bit... i recognized the writing style in those articles you linked. decent work, but should be written with 1.5 spacing. subtlely insulting someones knowledge about a valued subject makes no friends, but i suspect you know that by now.

i did not suggest sodium bicarbonate as a long term solution, nor as a long term substitute to water changes. merely as a substitute, short term, to produce the desired result. if you are discussing a change of 6 to 7.6 is a lot, even for water changes. three days and counting, right, xielos?

the TDS (total dissolved solids, right? its been a while)of the system, is not the issue i'm discussing. a large end of cycle water change would equalize any excess, for the most part, though with really hard water, i doubt it matters.

the system needs a buffering component, short term since the fish are on the way. chances are the tap has plenty, but there are water supplies with 'hard' water with little buffering capacities. this might be one of those cases.

and to patoloco, thanks for sounding in(NOT sarcastic). but i would hardly classify baking soda with 'other chemicals' so loosely, and definatley not expensive. like three bucks for a couple of years worth?

the only thing you (RTR) suggested is water changes, and in most cases, i would agree... even in this case, but as this forum is intended as a means to further educate aquarist, i figured it was a suitable time to bring up the fact that if the pH crash we are discussing is caused by say, tannins, in addition to the oxidization of CO3 to CO2, the knowledge of a quick fix, and experience in its use, would be helpful. a hard rain for a few days can cause a pH drop of several tenths. if the only buffer present is in the tap itself..... especially if you have tannic acid working to push the reaction.... several pieces of driftwood can have a DRAMATIC effect on new tanks.

and its not horrible advice... maybe it needed a check, but be cautious. i'm actually glad i was prodded to write this.

and xeilos, my abridged advice... play around with the baking soda if you want, especially since the tank is empty... but even more so, add a chunk of limestone or some crushed coral. that way you will probably never have a buffer problem or pH problem again.

 

[RTR]

I am not here to make friends. I am here to help folks understand their tanks and by so doing protect the lives and health of their fish. If you can refute my advice please feel free to do so, I am still learning also. If you want to ignore my advice, that too is pure personal option. Critiquing the publication of things I have written is not quite the same thing, address that to the Admins of the sites where they are published.

If you really think that adding bicarb does not affect the TDS of the water, perhaps you might want to check that sometime - especially at the end of a fishless cycle when the nitrate titer is already at OTS levels. What you do not know can hurt your fish.

 

[Xielos]

I picked up the hardness test thingy, and my results are as follows:

GH 120ppm

KH <10ppm

I'd already be doing the water change, but my sister is watching TV and won't let me -.-;