Problems with changing water

B

bt300z32

AC Members
Feb 10, 2005
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55Gal African Cichlids
1 AC 300
1 Emp. 400
Rena Heater ~80º

Anything else you might need let me know.

For staters I was building up quite a nice stock of african cichlids (55gal). One night I had to move the tank so that meant draining it completely, which I did almost to the bottom, but left the fish in since there was enough water for them to be in. Got the tank moved, start filling it up, and fish start popping off like crazy, so I panic and start putting as many as I could into another smaller tank I have (10gal). So when the nightmare was over I lost 13 peacocks, but my red zebra and turq. hap lived, as well as a synodontis, bumble bee cat, and a pleco (those all stayed in the 55 through the whole thing). So, I think it was the cold water from outside that did them in. Ok, so my fault, wont do that again. Went about a month before I got more fish. Doing a water change tonight filled it up with water from *inside* at room temp. using the chlorine remover and I start to notice fish gasping for air and my bumble cat starting doing that dying thing where they flail around the tank and so does another new peacock I got. So remembering what happend last time, i got all my new peacocks (6more) into the smaller 10g again. This time they are all fine except for the bumble bee and the one peacock which died. But I left the red zebra, turq hap, synodotis and a black shark (just got from a friend) in the 55 (too much for the 10g) and they are all gasping for air. I have both filters running, put about 5 capfulls of cycle in so far. I tested the water last night, it was fine. Tested it after I noticed fish dying and noticed my nitrates were getting higher. Could this be because I stired up the gravel when cleaning it out? In other words, has someone else had this problem before and what can I do to keep it from happening again. The fish in the 55 have been in there for about an hour and are still alive, but seem to be gasping or breathing fast for air. Thanks a whole bunch in advance! -Brandon
 
Hmmm... well its definately something to do with the water you are putting in the tank. The new water added to the tank should be prepared properly:

-It should be the SAME temperature as the water in the tank, not room temp, it should be about 80F, if thats what your temp is.

-You should remove chorline from the water before adding it to the tank with some sort of chorline remover.

-You *should* buffer the new water with baking soda or cichlid salts to make it the same ph and hardness as the water in the tank.

How often do you do water changes? How much water do you change? Are you on well water? What are you doing to the filters to clean them? How are you cleaning the tank- do you gravel vacumm and algae scrub?

You should give us a run-down of exactly what you do the tank....
 
It's virtually impossible that stirring the gravel hurt anything, there are a few questions that come to mind though that might help find an answer.

#1. are the test numbers on your tap water the same as the test number of your tank, i.e. PH, KH, temp etc.

#2. Do you have chloramines or chlorine, and what do you treat with. If Chloramines are there and you use a simple dechlorinator, it will leave ammonia which could cause a pretty big spike in an estabilished tank. This spike could show as ammonia, nitrite or both depending on bio-filter size and extra ammonia load.

#3. is it possible you have aneorobic pockets in the substrate and have released toxic gas by stirring up the gravel. If you gravel vac regularly, and don't have big dead areas in the substrate this shouldn't be an issue but possible.

#4. Other than the two water changes you are mentioning, what is your normal water change vaccuming routine?

Cycle won't help you, it's a waste of money, and doesn't do what it claims it will. With things happening as fast as you mention, I would almost bet on Chloramines, but there are several possibilities.

In a reasonably well maintained tank, water changes shoud have little effect on the fish, other than the good effects of removing waste, and refreshing the tank. If a tank isn't maintained, KH depletion, excess buildup of pollutants etc. make the tank water and tap water very different from each other, and a high volume water change then becomes a danger. for more info run a search on OLD tank syndrome or OTS. In these situations the tank needs to be set right very slowly with high frequency low volume water changes in order to let you fish adjust slowly back to the better parrameters. A tank does not have to be very old for OTS to be a factor, don't let the name fool you.
HTH
Dave
 
Ok...well here we go on how I do water changes

First off I've always done my changes the same way, and just recently had problems. I take out rocks/decorations. I change 1/4 -1/3 depending on how much is gone by the time I get done vacuuming the gravel. I always condition with the chlorine remover before I add it to the tank, but I've never "buffered" it before and never knew it was that big of deal because I was always told here in Florida, the water we have is high enough Ph and high enough hardness that I don't even need to buff it with additives or substrate like crushed coral, this is just what I've been told. I'm not exactly sure what temp the water is, I was just guessing room temp. The water feels just a little warm, but definately not cold or hot. We are on city water. Last time when I lost the 13 fish, I used well water which is what I had always used before with no problems. I just always add the chlorine, cycle, and some salt. I try to do water changes once a month, but test regularly to make sure it's fine, especially if I've been busy and going over a month. Thats why I'm doing it late tonight because I just don't have alot of time. I don't clean the filters when I do water changes due to the fact I'm vacuuming the gravel and losing bacteria, so I do those later. I honestly can say that time flys by and I lose track of cleaning those things out. But when I do, I clean the sponge on the AC300, and replace the cartridges on the Emp 400 every 2-4 wks. So yes, I vacuum tank and I also scrub the algae (tonight though that was the last thing I did after I filled it back up). Like I've said I have never had this problem before and I'm going on a year of having this 55 with africans. Could adding water really do that much harm, espcially since the ratio of new to old water is much lower. I have also heard that some people dont even add the chlorine remover because its so little water compared to the older water. I always do as a precaution. Thanks for the help!
 
Man, I didnt realize there were chloramines or chlorine, I just thought it was chlorine. The chloramine thing sounds like that is what happend to me. So what do I do to keep that from happening? The gas pockets are another one. Its been about a month since I vacuumed it.
 
So I've been reading. . .

Looks like I'm the cause of all my problems. I've been told by the guys working at the shops that I only have to change water once a month. Well according to the majority of people on here, looks more like once a week is the average. So, Im gonna do some small water changes here, to see if I can get rid of that OTS thing which I may have. But what should I do about adding in the chlorine remover with the possible chloramine deal. The stuff I have says it will break down chlorine and chloramine, but you said that it leaves ammonia, which is not good. So I cant win right? BTW, since I last posted, I lost my turqoise hap. So thats 3 fish tonight :(. Who knows what it will be like in the morning.
 
Water changes

I do water changes every month, and my fish do fine. I just recently set up my new 55 gallon freshwater tank, with an Aqua clear 500 and a Topfin 60 power filter (came with tank) also a topfin undergravel filter. Once my 55 cylces im going to transfer the fish from the 20 gallon into the 55 and get rid of the 20 gallon. In my 20 gallon all my fish have lived through these water changes. I vaccuum the gravel and then i start adding buckets of water, then on the very last bucket i add i put in the Aqua Plus Water Conditioner (by Hagen) and then dump the bucket in. I havent lost a fish from doing these monthly water changes, i have never done any testing other than for ph. my water is at 78 degrees. And yes that cylce stuff that says it will mature you tank is useless. doesnt work i dont see how it could anyways.
 
I imagine that it was the large volume of water changed that shocked the fish. Especially if you do once a month or so water changes, the new water was drastically different than the water they were used to (nitrates, Ph, etc). This may not be a big deal with small changes, but the large water change would probably cause problems.

The other is the treating for chlorine, chloramines. I had some trouble with water changes and losing fish. I switched to seachem Prime as my water conditioner instead of Tetra Aquasafe, and I seem to be having much better results........maybe it's a coincedence. I don't know.
 
A couple of additional things that may help you out.
Vaccuming and water changing have a trivial if any effect on bacteria levels (or the ones that matter in this conversation anyhow) So do not be scared to carefully clean you filters at the same time if you want to. If you are replacing media rather than rinsing it in tank water, then you definately want to stagger the replacements between your filter to minimize bacteria loss.

If you do not know whether or not you have chloramines, either use Prime or Amquel + (sp) as a dechlorinator. These remove the chlorine from the equation and then bind the ammonia into ammonium which will be consumed by your bio-filter but wan't hurt your fish.

OTS is kind of a tricky diagnosis. KH number usually show it well though. The natural processes in your tank consume the KH and drop the ph slowly. the fish adjust as these drops take place, but any new fish or any quick change of water will be very stressfull. How fast how much, how stressful are all related to bio-load vs KH from the tap.

Don't ever let anyone convince you that high volume or frequent water changes are stressful to the fish. there are too many folks doing this too often with too much success for water changes to ever be a bad thing. It is very common for LFS's to tell you you don't need to clean your tank more than once per month, and they will sell you lots of chemicals to help you out as well. ?In reality, water changes really are the best standard policy for a long term stable environment.
HTH
Dave
 
Dave is rite, i do water changes every other day...
 
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