Progress??

[DaveTMD]

HI All,

It's been 11 Days...

Started on 12/30/02
PH 7.0
(NH3) 3
(NO2-) .3
(GH) 16
(KH) 4
Temp 78Deg

Today 01/09/03
PH 6.0
(NH3) .5
(NO2-) 3.3 + That's as high as the test kit Reads
(GH) 14
(KH) 3 It never gets Blue Goes right to Yellow Distinct at 3 drops
Temp 78Deg

There are no Fish in the tank. Lightly planted. Growth on most plants crypts are doing well but the Moneywort is dying off from the bottom up. I've got some brown fuzz almost looks like hiar growing on some areas.
How long before the Ammonia is gone? It seems to have stablized the past 3 days.
I've been doing water changes to keep the Ph up it falls to 5.5 in about 4 days.
How long before I see the Nitrite's start to fall?

On a different note I've got a Gold fish Question..
1 of our goldfish seems to sit on the bottom of it's tank hardly moving it's been doing it for awhile (2 weeks) sometimes it leans up against the glass in the corner. Is this something I should be concerned about?

As Always Thanks,

Dave T

 

[carpguy]

Two separate things.

If you never get the start color you have a KH less than 1. You have had a pH crash. The super low pH can kill the bacteria and be bad for the cycle, so the water changes are good for the moment. The KH (or carbonate hardness, or alkalinity) is a measure of your waters ability to keep the pH stable despite the introduction of acids (or bases). The nitrogenous wastes are mildly acidic. The acids will work on the buffer (bicarbonates in the water) until they are gone and when they are the pH suddenly drops. This is bad.

With a natural KH of 4 you're low but probably ok in normal circumstances. I think the fishless cycle is probably more intense than a regular bioload. My KH out of my tap is naturally and normally 0. I put a few tablespoons of crushed coral into a filter bag and the bag into the filter. The coral slowly dissoves into the water and lifts the KH (and the pH) this is the safe and natural way to fix this. A little baking soda will also work as a temporary fix (a lot easier than water changes).

The Water Chemistry FAQ explains it in better detail.

The general recommendation is to not fishlessly cycle a planted tank. It invites an algae outbreak. The conditions needed for the plants combined with the high amounts of nitrogen compounds floating around (fertilizer) set up ideal conditions for algae. I'd check the Algae FAQ and once you have an ID, I'd ask the folks in the plant forum how to deal with it. This thread is a recent one from there.

Can't help with the goldfish. They need more space than tropical fish. You might want to post in the General Forum with tank specs and chemistry.

 

[Richer]

A little correction to what carpguy said... Its not recommended to fishless cycle a planted tank, because light+ammonia added will cause algae outbreaks. Not the nitrate. I've had the nitrate levels in my plant tanks soar into the high 50s (because I accidently dumped a load of KNO3 into the tank.. stupid stupid stupid), and didn't experience an algae outbreak. But I bet if I had a small ammonia spike in my water, algae would bloom.

IMHO, pull those plants out, and do your fishless cycle without your plants. That way, you won't have any annoying algae to battle after your cycle is done (because the lights are off), and the bacterial colonies will be better developed (since there are no plants to absorbe some of the ammonia introduced to the tank).

HTH
-Richer

 

[carpguy]

Not to get too off-topic, but algal blooms are one of the biggest problems associated with high farm-waste nitrates in rivers and in water supplies. There isn't a lot of ammonia in these systems. Regardless of the chemistry, fishless and planted don't mix.

There is a fishless planted alternative, that depends on the plants to use up the nitrogen compounds. Bookmark it for further down the road. It depends on being pretty heavily planted and that adds a lot more complexity if you're just getting started. As someone who started recently myself, I fishlessed and then stocked and planted. So far its worked well, and I haven't lost any fish. The fish are thriving. The plants are doing ok. I'm going to lose some of them. I'm still learning that part: the plants have been by far the most complicated part.

The planted is definitely worth the trouble if you're interested, but its a lot if your just getting going. One step at a time. The algae treatments outlined in the other thread are going to involve unplanting your tank anyway. I'd continue the fishless and take out the plants. You maybe able to save some of the plants in a bucket with light and ferts. Most aquatic plants draw a lot of nutrients from the water rather than from their roots. If the algae is heavy and the plants aren't well-established you may be better off starting over anyway. Young plants may not survive the treatment. I'd take the algae and the plant questions over to the plant forum. You might want to look at this thread as well.

 

[DaveTMD]

I guess what I was looking for was some indication of where I'm at in the cycling of the tank. Things seemed to have stalled. The 2 or 3 patches of brown fuzz I have could easily be handled be a few Otto's or SAE's but I can't put fish in the tank yet so it's DECISION TIME. Pull the plant's and let the cycle complete or wait it out with the plants in hope's that I'm close and will be putting Fish in soon?

FYI.. I never put ammonia in this tank. I'm assuming with feedback from several folks from the forum that some decaying plant matter or something I introduced with the driftwood is what created the ammonia spike which started the cycle. Will pulling the plants now that I have a Nitrite level stunt the process in anyway or will I have to start introducing ammonia to the tank again?

Thanks,
Dave T

 

[carpguy]

3 ppm seems high without a more obvious ammonia source than the plants. There was another recent thread where someone else had a similar thing happen. Can't remember if they ever figured it out. The "normal" cycle seems to be an ammonia spike that lasts a week or a little longer and a nitrite spike that lasts a bit longer than that. Someone gives a figure of 1.5 to 2 times longer. Figure 10 days for the ammonia and 20 for the nitrItes. Your Mileage May Vary.

It sounds like your probably past the ammo spike and started into the NO2 spike. My ammo spiked and then slowly trailed off well into the nitrite spike, so it may not zero out immediately. The ammonia spike is more toxic than the nitrIte spike. If your not going fishless, I'd follow the plan in the planted alternative and start to add fish a few at a time. If you have an established ammonia-eating colony it should adjust quickly. Otos tend to be sensitive, so they may not be great fish to finish out the cycle, even if it is mild. Water changes should help with toxicity levels, if things look too high or the fish seem stressed.

I don't think the plants use nitrites, just ammonia and nitrates, so the bacteria just need to cycle in (not sure on that). Pulling the plants would give you an ammo bump (since they are using some of the ammonia) unless they themselves are the source. If you just have a few limited patches of black beard or brush algae, or whatever it may be, I'd remove it by hand or trim it off or clip the leaves. Get rid of it as fast as you can before it spreads out of control.