Surfactants.

[FishFixation]

Perhaps this has been asked and answered a hundred times, but I have yet to see an answer that really satisfies me.

As we all know, pure ammonia can be extraordinarily hard to find, and many a beginning aquarist has accidentally purchased ammonia with surfactants for their fishless cycling. You can read all over the internet that ammonia containing surfactants is bad and should not be used, but no one ever seems to say just why.

In your average "clear" ammonia, you've probably got 0.1% to 0.5% surfactant. Consider that you're adding mere drops of this stuff to your tank, and you've created an essentially homeopathic dilution of the surfactant. We're talking parts per billion here.

I'm a scientist by education, and it just doesn't make any sense to me that anything at that minute a concentration would have any real potential to harm your tank... especially if you were to do a near complete water change before adding fish. Sure, large amounts of surfactant would definitely be a bad thing, but at such vanishingly miniscule amounts, I just can't fathom its being that great a risk.

So, please tell me - how is it that these essentially immeasurable amounts of surfactant are so bad for a tank? (If you can link some references, that would be great!)

Thanks!

 

[platytudes]

It very well may not make any difference - just like the trivial amount of iodine and anti-caking agents in table salt probably doesn't matter either. But if you can find a source of "pure" ammonia (and ACE hardware apparently is the place, according to what I've read) I would use it just in case. It's one of those things...like I've been meaning to get organic zucchini and cucumber from the farmer's market since they are cheap and plentiful. I know it would be better if I could get organic always, although I must say I can't tell when I use just the regular stuff...*sigh*

 

[KarlTh]

It very well may not make any difference - just like the trivial amount of iodine and anti-caking agents in table salt probably doesn't matter either.

No "probably" about it, which is why experienced aquarists recommend leaving the overpriced "aquarium salt" on the shelf and using table salt.

 

[Rbishop]

Perhaps this has been asked and answered a hundred times, but I have yet to see an answer that really satisfies me.

As we all know, pure ammonia can be extraordinarily hard to find, and many a beginning aquarist has accidentally purchased ammonia with surfactants for their fishless cycling. You can read all over the internet that ammonia containing surfactants is bad and should not be used, but no one ever seems to say just why.

In your average "clear" ammonia, you've probably got 0.1% to 0.5% surfactant. Consider that you're adding mere drops of this stuff to your tank, and you've created an essentially homeopathic dilution of the surfactant. We're talking parts per billion here.

I'm a scientist by education, and it just doesn't make any sense to me that anything at that minute a concentration would have any real potential to harm your tank... especially if you were to do a near complete water change before adding fish. Sure, large amounts of surfactant would definitely be a bad thing, but at such vanishingly miniscule amounts, I just can't fathom its being that great a risk.

So, please tell me - how is it that these essentially immeasurable amounts of surfactant are so bad for a tank? (If you can link some references, that would be great!)

Thanks!

It would be a good experiment to cycle a tank with each, though testing it out on a live fish may draw some criticisms.
I think many times, the word surfactant also gets used to describe other additives like soaps, anti-bacterial ingredients and fragrances that may give you more issues in the long run.

 

[FishFixation]

It would be a good experiment to cycle a tank with each, though testing it out on a live fish may draw some criticisms.
I think many times, the word surfactant also gets used to describe other additives like soaps, anti-bacterial ingredients and fragrances that may give you more issues in the long run.

See, that's the thing - I don't want people to flame me and call me cruel and irresponsible if I were to say that I might try it... but I'm still waiting for a convincing argument against. I won't lie... the things I've read DO make me a bit anxious, but the factual basis for those fears seems weak. If anyone can tell me why my logic is flawed, I'll gladly pursue another route.

The "clear" ammonia I have lists only water, ammonia, and surfactant in the ingredients, and I'm pretty sure that by "surfactant," they mean surfactant, not soap, fragrances, etc.

I've read a few anecdotal accounts of people who have used surfactant-containing ammonia with no apparent detrimental effects, yet I've seen no first-hand accounts of tanks that DID have issues after being cycled with the impure ammonia. This gives me three possible theories either 1) it isn't actually a problem, or 2) no one has [intentionally] tried it, or 3) no one who has done it and suffered detrimental effects wants to talk about it. I looked through the first ten pages of a google search for "surfactant aquarium" and found no such negative personal accounts.

Would the world hate me if I were to go ahead and try it?

 

[Amphiprion]

It should have little effect at the concentrations given, especially after a water change. There is a science link article about the effects of surfactants, but I don't have access to the entire article to find the particulars about any sort of concentrations involved in the study. http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/199919/000019991999A0686342.php . I would imagine the concentrations won't have to be terribly substantial, but I find it very unlikely that any concentrations of those levels, again, especially post water change, would have any negative effects. In any case, I would say for now that a good water change after cycling should be plenty and a good safeguard just in case.

 

[FishFixation]

Thanks for the replies. I finally made it to an Ace to buy the right ammonia, so I did a 95% water change (but left the bio-wheel and filter cartridge in place) and started over. As much as my reasoning made sense to me, I was still unsettled. I'd rather be safe than sorry, I guess. I hope my extra activated charcoal (the bag hanging in the upper R corner of my tank) will help remove whatever gunk the water change left.

The real stuff is a lot stronger than what I'd been using (yes, I was already doing it), and a mere ~3 drops have my ammonia up to somewhere between 2 and 4 ppm (vs. ~8 drops for 1 ppm). I can't really tell because the colors are so similar on my API test kit.

At least now I have the peace of mind that I'm doing this the "right" way.

So, in the past week:
Plan 1: Fish food - Way too messy. My tank was disgusting.
Plan 2: Ammonia with surfactants - Couldn't get over the anxious feeling, and the ammonia solution must've been really weak.
Plan 3: Pure Ammonia - Let's hope this works... my poor tank has been through a lot in the past week!

*sigh* what a hassle.

 

[THE V]

Well I spent my lunch hour at work today looking up this one for you. There is in fact a whole body of work done of the effects of surfactants upon aquatic organisms. I did a quick search and found over 200 different papers on the topic. Given that the amount of these chemicals that we dump down our drains these are mainly papers on the environmental impact of these chemicals. I imagine if I spent more than an hour scanning I could have probably drug up several thousands such papers.

I didn't delve into the effects of surfactants on microbes as that body of work was way too extensive. However the general summary that I got was most of the commonly used ones can be decomposed by microbes. However the ones that are not decomposed posed some serious effects.

To be honest I'm a little rusty on the chemistry as I haven't dealt with it much. Here is my best understanding of what surfactants can do.

They can be very lethal. The LD50 varies by species and by the type of surfactant. One species of fish may be fine with a level while another will die at a very low dosage.

If they are not immediately lethal they can cause issues with reproduction, juvenile development, and tissue damage to the gills that slowly kills them.

They can also cause a whole list of long term behavioral and physiological effects. Many of these are debilitating to the fish. These are generally caused by very low concentrations of the chemicals.

In more established tanks will a full healthy biota of microbes the danger of surfactants is less. However in a new tank with very little microorganisms the effect could be catastrophic.

So to be on the safe side. Keep them out of your tank whenever possible.

Guang-Guo Ying, 2006. Fate, behavior and effects of surfactants and their degradation products in the environment . Environment International, 32(3), 417-431 .

H. VON WESTERNHAGEN, 1988. SUBLETHAL EFFECTS OF POLLUTANTS
ON FISH EGGS AND LARVAE. FISH PHYSIOLOGY,, XIA, 253-346.

Lewis, MA, 1991. Chronic and Sublethal Toxicities of Surfactants to Aquatic Animals: a Review and Risk Assessment . Water Research, Vol. 25(No. 1), 101-113.

Partearroyo, MA | Pilling, SJ | Jones, MN, 1991. The Lysis of Isolated Fish (Oncorhynchus mykiss) Gill Epithelial Cells by Surfactants . Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology , 100(3), 381-388.

Vittozzi, L | De Angelis, G, 1991. A Critical Review of Comparative Acute Toxicity Data on Freshwater Fish . Aquatic Toxicology AQTODG, 19(3), 167-207.

 

[Amphiprion]

Sure, but the concentrations suggested in most of those studies would still be much greater than what you'd see in this particular situation. I'm not saying that one should actively accept and use ammonia with surfactant (whichever one that may be, since it seems to be nonspecific), but that it more than likely won't be the end of the world, especially at post-dilution concentrations.

 

[THE V]

^Actually there are two types of studies listed there. The lethal dose ones and then the ones on what very small levels of these chemicals do to fish. The aquarium is going to be much higher than the ocean studies.

The major risk is though to be that the chemical structure causes the chemicals to become locked in the cell membranes. This can lead to deleterious effects longer down the road.