The carbon controversy HLLE and anything else you have.

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The examples discussed in the article on HITH and HLLE that I wrote were cases where HLLE developed while carbon was in the tank. The only change made was the removal of the carbon and the HLLE went away. They started using carbon again and the HLLE returned. If anyone has any explanation for that other than the HLLE in these cases was caused by the carbon, please let us know.

The problem is that people want to hear a single thing is the cause of HLLE. They are making an assumption that it has one cause, that assumption is dangerous. If you look at the cases this is not true. It seems like HLLE has a number of causes, so it is not a single disease, but a symptom, like dropsy. So although it may not cause all cases of HLLE (something no theory seems to come close to explaining) it does seem to be one of the causes.

If it could do something like this, how do we know it can't do other things that are much harder to determine. When fish die, how many are properly diagnosed for cause of death? How many have a necropsy done to determine what may have been wrong? So for all we know all these 'mystery deaths' and fish that die of 'old age' (even though others of that species normally live much longer) may be due to internal problems caused by issues associated with diet, carbon use, water change schedule, and other things that could have no observable problems, yet be causing internal issues long term.

We know so much about human health, we can communicate with other humans, and we still don't know what's wrong a lot of the time, at least not before a lot of expensive tests. So why no possibility of similar issues in fish?

My tanks are crystal clear. Properly setup filters (canisters with course mechanical sponges, then very fine/polishing mechanical made by cramming as much polyester pillow stuffing in the compartment as possible, then adequate biological media) keep my tanks crystal clear. Weekly large water changes keep all harmful chemicals to a minimum (nitrate, odor, discoloration, etc.). I simply see no need to spend the money on something that has some posisble risks, that I don't even need. The water changes do it for cheaper, and are even better because they treat and prevent problems, not just treat symptoms.

This may not be a case of extremes, where 'if it is used there WILL be problems'. But there is a whole spectrum of how safe something can be. Just because it is not in the 'the consequences are so severe and occur so quickly that there is no doubt to anyone' category, does not it is in the 'perfectly safe and should always be used' category.

All I can say is try it. Try not using carbon and maintaining an adequate water change schedule. If you see problems, go back to what you were doing. You never know if something else may be better for you and your tanks if you don't try it.
 
I have kept Oscars for years, with the constant use of carbon, and never had a HITH or HLLE issue. I think other undefinable parameters exist.
 
Not only does it have a number of different possible causes, but different species are more or less susceptible. With oscars it seems to be mainly water quality and diet. Fish like angels and discus are more prone to HITH (parasitic). In addition, someone can something one way for fifty years and not have problems, that doesn't mean other people have not had problems doing it that way.
 
I don't use carbon in my freshwater tanks, but I do in my saltwater ones.

As rbishop pointed out, they do a good job of keeping the water crystal clear, but its completely optional and very expensive.

To minimize costs, I buy my carbon in bulk, sometimes at LFS who carry them in 2 gallon buckets, or online where I bought once a 5 gallon bucket.



woot, 2000th post.
 
My cousin read a more advanced 'Marine Invertebrates' book, or an equivalent title, and it described an ideal carbon schedule of only a few hours once a month. So advanced books are leaning off carbon.
 
Here is part of a wiki article on my search. I have highlighted in red parts that I found interesting.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexamita

There is much debate as to the cause of HLLE. Very little scientific research has been done on the topic, and most information available is anecdotal.
Removing carbon from the filter is a commonly suggested remedy for the disease. It is suggested that the carbon may either a.) add fine carbon particles to the water that irritate the skin, b.) leach phosphates and other potentially harmful chemicals into the water, or c.) remove minerals that are important to the health of the fish. Though there have been many reports of affected fish recovering after carbon has been removed, no studies have substantiated these theories, and most aquariums use carbon while still having healthy fish.
Many people believe that hexamita, a flagellated protozoan, is to blame. HLLE and hexamita infections are often seen in the same specimens.[3] However, HLLE can be found in many fish who do not have a hexamita infection, suggesting that a hexamita infection may cause stress or interfere with the absorption of vitamins and minerals causing malnutrition, which may be the actual cause of the disease. Hexamita may also be a secondary infection common in fish already weakened by HLLE.
Individual studies have shown that improvement in nutrition will help symptoms most effectively. Key vitamins in preventing or curing HLLE seem to be Vitamins A, C, and D. Adding these vitamins to the diet of affected fish usually leads to improvement, however, deficiencies in any of these vitamins do not always lead to HLLE, so nutrition is also questionable as a cause.
It has also been suggested that HLLE is an autoimmune disorder that is triggered by stress.[4] The disease does not appear to occur to fish in the wild, only those in captivity, supporting the idea that stress and unnatural living conditions are to blame. Anything that reduces stress appears to help in the prevention and recovery from this disease.
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Q
 
reptileguy2727 said:
My cousin read a more advanced 'Marine Invertebrates' book, or an equivalent title, and it described an ideal carbon schedule of only a few hours once a month. So advanced books are leaning off carbon.
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my argument with this is that 3-4 hours is not enough to do any good.

that said, i don't use carbon at all.
 
I have read that article before. When I talk about HITH and HLLE I differentiate between the two in that HITH is caused by parasites. This has been a proven cause when metronidazole containing medications are successfully used as the only treatment. HITH tends to have smaller, narrower, but usually deeper holes, sometimes with white discharge. It is more common to fish like angels and discus.

HLLE on the other hand, when I am talking about the two, is non-parasitic and usually the case in oscars, jaguar cichlids, Synodontis spp., etc. The holes are wider and shallower. This difference in symptoms also points to them being different diseases/conditions.

Again, the article describes how none of these causes are supported across the board, ever. This supports that there are multiple causes, which is what we need to acknowledge and admit if we are going to find the causes.

The book said something like five hours with high quality carbon. Considering the flow rates in most reef tanks, that is more than enough for all the water in the tank to go through the filtration system multiple times and be cleaned by the carbon.

I would like to know how they do a study of carbon causing it when we all know it does not cause it all the time, but very rarely. Rare instances of anything are extremely hard to study because you have to have an almost limitless budget to run enough trials just to get one incidence of it. The best study is the real world, which provides many cases every year. This is exactly what we need to be looking at. We need to constantly collect data from different cases to see what type of fish it is in, what the holes look like, what cures were attempted, what worked and did not work, etc.
 
An excellent article Jones. It seems most sources of information that I have googled place proper diet and proper nutrition as the main first step for treatment and prevention of HITH/HLLE.

In your link: (I have summarized the steps)

1) Feed a balanced and vitamin enriched diet....
2) Start doing water changes....
3) Add 1 tbs of aquarium salt to every 5-10 gallons of water....
4) Raise the temperature in the tank to 80-82° F....
5) Remove all carbon from your filters. This is a precautionary measure unless you know for a fact that the carbon is the main cause....
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Notice that removing the carbon is down on the list and just a precautionary measure.

At this point in my research I don't think that a claim that carbon is the cause of HLLE without any scientifically verifiable proof has any merit. Since this seems to be a disorder associated only with captivity then one would naturally suspect any unnatural aspects of captivity such as carbon filtration to be a cause. However it can be said that how fish are fed in captivity is just as unnatural. Living in a glass box is unnatural and so on.
So many of the links put poor nutrition at the top of the list of causes for HLLE and it's easy to understand why. I don't doubt that most fish get a diet that is totally, if not partly, out of the norm as compared to what they would get in the wild.

I think that I will return to using carbon in my filters for clarifying water. I do weekly water changes and vac the gravel. I feed my fish well but could probably do better there.

One thing I found out with all of this is that I will rinse the carbon very well before I put it in any of my filters.... just like it says in the directions.

Q
 
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