Trolls
- Thread starter Holly9937
- Start date
Well no point arguing over the definition of a troll. That would make the trolls just shake their heads 
im a bit confused with the right and wrong issues. i will tell you in an honest way how ive been keeping fish. ive been doing this for over 20 years way before the internet was around, my only sources were books and magazines im sure like most of you, and occasionally the chit chat with petstore owners.
i am guilty of over stocking my tanks, but from all the old books ive went through the general rule which applies to small fish only is with added filtration and air you can double even triple the basic rule of one inch per gallon. so this is what i have done, ive always double the amount. and quite honestly ive never seen a bad response from these fish. ive only had 2 fish that were sick my whole life and that was a chocolate cichlid and an oscar suffering with hith disease, the other tank mates were not affected.
in the several tanks ive had all different species, they lived out there lives until they either died of old age or i had to give them away because some grew out of their tanks. my amonia and nitrates were always in check with amonia being 0. my fish only had ich once and that was my first tank when i was 9 years old. so sometimes i preach what is "reality" instead of what is in my opinion UNDER stocked. i do list the species adult size so the poster is aware and most people, at least me anyway, always go bigger, im tank obsessed. so when someone asks what fish they can get in a 20 gallon and i recommend a small pl*co thats not bad advice its practical advice. bad advice would say its ok to put an oscar in a fish bowl.
do you think fish like being in tanks? its cruel no? people are cruel to animals even if we try and make it the best and biggest tank possible and spend hundreds of dollars on equipment, im sure the fish would rather be swimming free in their natural waters that to be stuck in a glass prison.
what im getting at is everyone points there fingers saying wrong wrong and no you cant do that, when we are all wrong for keeping any living thing in our homes. im sure some of us eat fish right? oh and seaworld isnt cruel? keeping those orca's in a "pool". people abuse animals, even if it is unintenional, and we my friends are all guilty of this abuse
i am guilty of over stocking my tanks, but from all the old books ive went through the general rule which applies to small fish only is with added filtration and air you can double even triple the basic rule of one inch per gallon. so this is what i have done, ive always double the amount. and quite honestly ive never seen a bad response from these fish. ive only had 2 fish that were sick my whole life and that was a chocolate cichlid and an oscar suffering with hith disease, the other tank mates were not affected.
in the several tanks ive had all different species, they lived out there lives until they either died of old age or i had to give them away because some grew out of their tanks. my amonia and nitrates were always in check with amonia being 0. my fish only had ich once and that was my first tank when i was 9 years old. so sometimes i preach what is "reality" instead of what is in my opinion UNDER stocked. i do list the species adult size so the poster is aware and most people, at least me anyway, always go bigger, im tank obsessed. so when someone asks what fish they can get in a 20 gallon and i recommend a small pl*co thats not bad advice its practical advice. bad advice would say its ok to put an oscar in a fish bowl.
do you think fish like being in tanks? its cruel no? people are cruel to animals even if we try and make it the best and biggest tank possible and spend hundreds of dollars on equipment, im sure the fish would rather be swimming free in their natural waters that to be stuck in a glass prison.
what im getting at is everyone points there fingers saying wrong wrong and no you cant do that, when we are all wrong for keeping any living thing in our homes. im sure some of us eat fish right? oh and seaworld isnt cruel? keeping those orca's in a "pool". people abuse animals, even if it is unintenional, and we my friends are all guilty of this abuse
People here are going by what is currently recognized practice.
Just because 15 years ago I was able to keep a pair of gouramis in a 10 gallon tank with a half dozen other fish and not have any get sick or die...oh but I don't have the tank now...doesn't mean that is the way it should be done for optimal fish growth and health.
Did I do that? Yep. Did I read up on aquariums and learn from newer books and this site? Yep.
What's the point in coming here and posting if you are not open to learning and willing to change? People here will not stand by and see bad advice given out. Fact of life. Deal with it. People who persist in giving out bad advice generally get labeled as trolls.
That's what makes this site the best, becasue you can get good advice here, not whatever schlock some idiot wants to tell you. I can get that at the pet store.
Just because 15 years ago I was able to keep a pair of gouramis in a 10 gallon tank with a half dozen other fish and not have any get sick or die...oh but I don't have the tank now...doesn't mean that is the way it should be done for optimal fish growth and health.
Did I do that? Yep. Did I read up on aquariums and learn from newer books and this site? Yep.
What's the point in coming here and posting if you are not open to learning and willing to change? People here will not stand by and see bad advice given out. Fact of life. Deal with it. People who persist in giving out bad advice generally get labeled as trolls.
That's what makes this site the best, becasue you can get good advice here, not whatever schlock some idiot wants to tell you. I can get that at the pet store.
SquirrelOsO
Work with me here, in one sentence you suggest it's O.K. to put a pleco that will reach 18+ inches in a small tank, and then follow it by saying you aren't suggesting putting an Oscar in a fish bowl. There is no difference.
Coomon pleco's get big, it doesn't matter if they get big next week or next decade they still get big and whoever owns them still has them to deal with.
Since it's pretty much understood that the pet stores are going to sell whatever people want to buy, then it's up to the individual to be responsible about the fish they keep. People come here and ask for advice because they want to be responsible informed hobbyists, if they didn''t care they wouldn't be here asking.
You also suggest that it's O.k. to keep heavily stocked tank since its already cruelty to keep fish in the first place.
If most of us believed it was cruel to keep fish in tanks we wouldn't do it. but it is cruel to house fish inadequately or provide them with poor conditions so we don't do that. I believe cruelty exists in the hobby, and everyone as to tolerate cruel moments because that is realty but I would suggest that if you truly believe it is cruel to keep fish in glass boxes, then you might want to find a different hobby. Cruelty is not a good hobby to have. But once again that is your choice, I just can't imagine being purposefully involved in something I thought was a cruel practice.
These are not and never were meant to be any type of personal attack. I for one have kept plenty of Oscars in 55g tanks with irredescent sharks and tiger shovelnose cats. But I did not know better at the time. When I learned how big these fish got I quit doing these things, and when others ask for suggestions on stocking I do not suggest things that I know won't work.
We are only asking that people not continue to defend or post bad advice after it has been pointed out as bad advice. There is a sticky explaining how poorly the inch per gallon rule actually applies, and how much trouble it may cause if you use it. there is additionally an article here that outlines a better (agreeably more complicated) method for determining stocking. under no circumstances would anyone with good experience reccomend more than and inch of fish per gallon. And with most fish the inch per gallon rule is so inadequate as to be laughable.
No one is trying to play God we are trying to keep people from making some of the same mistakes that we have made.
The last point is this. people have the right to do whatever they want at home, they can keep fish any way they want abusive or otherwise, they can overstock, they can underclean, they can be as responsible or irresponsible as they wish to be. When they come on these board and suggest practices that are irresponsible then they will be met with a lot of resistance. If they continue to defend their suggestion it will eventually be assumed that they aren't here to help others learn, and someone will probably label them a troll.
I hesitate to paste that label on anyone, and generally reserve my thoughts for me, If I think there is a problem I send a note to the mods and let them handle things. There have been plenty of people I don't like show up here and post things that made me cringe. In a lot of those cases those people proved to be very beneficial members of this community. There are people who I find to be quite irritating much of the time, but they are genuinly trying to help and they are beneficial. It's not about anyones opininion of someone else, it's about knowledge and understanding in the hobby, and the sharing of good information not bad information.
We want a lot of helpfull people here on the boards, the more knowledge and experience we all pool together the better the boards become. Your experience in fish keeping is quite valuable, and if you are willing to share that experience wonderful.
Dave
Work with me here, in one sentence you suggest it's O.K. to put a pleco that will reach 18+ inches in a small tank, and then follow it by saying you aren't suggesting putting an Oscar in a fish bowl. There is no difference.
Coomon pleco's get big, it doesn't matter if they get big next week or next decade they still get big and whoever owns them still has them to deal with.
Since it's pretty much understood that the pet stores are going to sell whatever people want to buy, then it's up to the individual to be responsible about the fish they keep. People come here and ask for advice because they want to be responsible informed hobbyists, if they didn''t care they wouldn't be here asking.
You also suggest that it's O.k. to keep heavily stocked tank since its already cruelty to keep fish in the first place.
If most of us believed it was cruel to keep fish in tanks we wouldn't do it. but it is cruel to house fish inadequately or provide them with poor conditions so we don't do that. I believe cruelty exists in the hobby, and everyone as to tolerate cruel moments because that is realty but I would suggest that if you truly believe it is cruel to keep fish in glass boxes, then you might want to find a different hobby. Cruelty is not a good hobby to have. But once again that is your choice, I just can't imagine being purposefully involved in something I thought was a cruel practice.
These are not and never were meant to be any type of personal attack. I for one have kept plenty of Oscars in 55g tanks with irredescent sharks and tiger shovelnose cats. But I did not know better at the time. When I learned how big these fish got I quit doing these things, and when others ask for suggestions on stocking I do not suggest things that I know won't work.
We are only asking that people not continue to defend or post bad advice after it has been pointed out as bad advice. There is a sticky explaining how poorly the inch per gallon rule actually applies, and how much trouble it may cause if you use it. there is additionally an article here that outlines a better (agreeably more complicated) method for determining stocking. under no circumstances would anyone with good experience reccomend more than and inch of fish per gallon. And with most fish the inch per gallon rule is so inadequate as to be laughable.
No one is trying to play God we are trying to keep people from making some of the same mistakes that we have made.
The last point is this. people have the right to do whatever they want at home, they can keep fish any way they want abusive or otherwise, they can overstock, they can underclean, they can be as responsible or irresponsible as they wish to be. When they come on these board and suggest practices that are irresponsible then they will be met with a lot of resistance. If they continue to defend their suggestion it will eventually be assumed that they aren't here to help others learn, and someone will probably label them a troll.
I hesitate to paste that label on anyone, and generally reserve my thoughts for me, If I think there is a problem I send a note to the mods and let them handle things. There have been plenty of people I don't like show up here and post things that made me cringe. In a lot of those cases those people proved to be very beneficial members of this community. There are people who I find to be quite irritating much of the time, but they are genuinly trying to help and they are beneficial. It's not about anyones opininion of someone else, it's about knowledge and understanding in the hobby, and the sharing of good information not bad information.
We want a lot of helpfull people here on the boards, the more knowledge and experience we all pool together the better the boards become. Your experience in fish keeping is quite valuable, and if you are willing to share that experience wonderful.
Dave
The thing about these boards is people aren't here looking for opinions. They come here looking for knowledge. Someone whithout knowledge cannot choose which course of action is appropriate. They don't come here to weight options, they come here to learn the best information we can give them.
Someone spreading bad information is to be frowned upon. However, ignorance is not a sin, nor is it even a bad thing. We are none of us born knowing, we all have to learn. I am never displeased at someone who knows nothing asking question about what they don't understand. I'm never upset with someone who has a hard time understanding, because some concepts can be tricky. Nor am I upset at someone who has a hard time asking the right questions, because when you don't know the subject matter, it's tough to know what to ask.
On the flip side, I do get upset/annoyed with people who refuse to learn. That is a sin. Arguing with someone isn't bad, but arguing without presenting reliable facts is, as is getting angry, name calling. If you can't support your claims with science, basic principles, then don't make the claim.
Fishkeeping and aquaria are science, not politics. Why do you think that RTR is one of (if not the) most reliable sources of information? Why is Tom Barr perhaps the most knowledgeable planted tank person? They're scientists and they bring their knowledge of science to the hobby.
That doesn't mean that you need to be a scientist to keep fish. Daveedka - to name one - isn't a scientist (correct me if I'm wrong Dave), but the reason why he is such a reliable and trustworthy member of this site is because he takes a scientific approach to fishkeeping. Just because someone has been doing something for a long time doesn't mean that they're doing it correctly. For decades, mdeicine drilled holes in people and bled them if they were sick. Sometimes the people didn't die, does this mean that these treatments were correct? No. The same applies to aquaria and fish husbandry.
The most successful hobbyists (in any hobby) are those that strive to learn the fundamental principles that control what they do. People who just look at things macroscopically and adjust to bad things as they happen without understanding the why will never have the same level of success.
Someone spreading bad information is to be frowned upon. However, ignorance is not a sin, nor is it even a bad thing. We are none of us born knowing, we all have to learn. I am never displeased at someone who knows nothing asking question about what they don't understand. I'm never upset with someone who has a hard time understanding, because some concepts can be tricky. Nor am I upset at someone who has a hard time asking the right questions, because when you don't know the subject matter, it's tough to know what to ask.
On the flip side, I do get upset/annoyed with people who refuse to learn. That is a sin. Arguing with someone isn't bad, but arguing without presenting reliable facts is, as is getting angry, name calling. If you can't support your claims with science, basic principles, then don't make the claim.
Fishkeeping and aquaria are science, not politics. Why do you think that RTR is one of (if not the) most reliable sources of information? Why is Tom Barr perhaps the most knowledgeable planted tank person? They're scientists and they bring their knowledge of science to the hobby.
That doesn't mean that you need to be a scientist to keep fish. Daveedka - to name one - isn't a scientist (correct me if I'm wrong Dave), but the reason why he is such a reliable and trustworthy member of this site is because he takes a scientific approach to fishkeeping. Just because someone has been doing something for a long time doesn't mean that they're doing it correctly. For decades, mdeicine drilled holes in people and bled them if they were sick. Sometimes the people didn't die, does this mean that these treatments were correct? No. The same applies to aquaria and fish husbandry.
The most successful hobbyists (in any hobby) are those that strive to learn the fundamental principles that control what they do. People who just look at things macroscopically and adjust to bad things as they happen without understanding the why will never have the same level of success.
The amount of time you have been in the hobby means nothing. Obviously you haven't learned to get beyond the overstocking and provide suitable stocking levels for your fish, yet you have been doing this for a while now. On the other hand, I know a person who has only been into fish for 3 years, those fish are discus, and he is one of the most respected members in the discus community that I know of.
Overstocking that grossly is only acceptable when a couple things are being done, the first is massive water changes very often to keep the water quality high, otherwise you will stunt your fish no bones about that, argue with me till your blue in the face about it. Second, you need to know the behaviors of the fish super well, and watch out for ANY aggression issues, while some fish overstocking dulls this, others it increases it. You also have to be sure all the fish are getting enough food, with over stocking this increases the competition and its extremely easy for a fish or two to not get enough food.
Also what I have found funny, is the majority of books, are a joke. Thankfully I was intellegent enough not to trust most of them, as the publishers don't seem to care of the authors know what they are talking about.
Overstocking that grossly is only acceptable when a couple things are being done, the first is massive water changes very often to keep the water quality high, otherwise you will stunt your fish no bones about that, argue with me till your blue in the face about it. Second, you need to know the behaviors of the fish super well, and watch out for ANY aggression issues, while some fish overstocking dulls this, others it increases it. You also have to be sure all the fish are getting enough food, with over stocking this increases the competition and its extremely easy for a fish or two to not get enough food.
Also what I have found funny, is the majority of books, are a joke. Thankfully I was intellegent enough not to trust most of them, as the publishers don't seem to care of the authors know what they are talking about.
Just to add a bit to this(I hope you understand this is mature and rational discussion, not an attack at you, or notniceness). The petshops sell other things than fish, dogs for example. If you go buy a dog it is your reponsiblilty to feed them, to train them, take them for walks etc. The same applies to fish. I wish I could give credit to this quote but I forget whos sig it is: "If you are taking an animal into your care, you should CARE for it". Again it is not the petstores responsibility to make sure your pets are well cared for, it is your(and my, and all fishkeepers) responsibility. I know not all employees at petstores are knowledgable, but I do have a petsmart where the head of the fish dept. has said, "sorry, I can't sell you that fish. It will not be OK in your tank". Though not as good, but at least showing some sort of knowledge, I have heard another store tell someone:"We will not give you our guarentee if you plan on putting this oscar into a 10 gallon"SquirrelOsO said:
:dive:
I hope that helped give you a perspective on how a lot of us think, and that I did not sound rude in the process.
very well said, all of you.
i think its best if i dont reply to most posts because i see the way i keep fish may work for me but probably wont for someone else, and i do upgrade to larger tanks when i see a larger fish cramped
i did do massive water changes in these overstocked tanks.
some posts i did just post my opinion because that was the topic, i forget in detail but it was the "whats the best algae cleaner" post, and in my opinion it was the common pl*co. and i did state in my post that they get large and will have to be moved eventually, but people just pass my good point and went straight for the bad, thats when i get PO'd.
i will enjoy reading the posts but i will not participate any longer
i think its best if i dont reply to most posts because i see the way i keep fish may work for me but probably wont for someone else, and i do upgrade to larger tanks when i see a larger fish cramped
i did do massive water changes in these overstocked tanks.
some posts i did just post my opinion because that was the topic, i forget in detail but it was the "whats the best algae cleaner" post, and in my opinion it was the common pl*co. and i did state in my post that they get large and will have to be moved eventually, but people just pass my good point and went straight for the bad, thats when i get PO'd.
i will enjoy reading the posts but i will not participate any longer
