Water conditioners for snails

[captmicha]

Okay, so some of this, if not all, has been asked before but I need some things cleared up because either I got hugely conflicting answers or I didn't understand something... As usual.

Do snails need buffered water or not? Some people have been telling me yes, but others have said no if I feed them a high calcium diet. Is the latter is true, then I don't understand a couple of things.
A. Won't acidic water eat away at their shells? Or does eating calcium allow for it to be replenished quick enough so as to negate the eating away at their shells?
B. If they don't need buffered water, then why is it that all the snails in my aquariums never live long enough to get very big but the snails that I've been keeping in a bucket for weeks with added calcium and baking soda are getting much larger? I haven't been feeding them anything different and not all my aquariums have snail eaters.

To buffer my water, what is the best and cheapest choice? I know you guys will probably tell me crushed coral or crushed oyster shells but I have some questions about that.
A. Will oyster shells actually release a reasonable amount of minerals and calcium into the water? I read some where that they aren't very effective because they don't release a lot of minerals and calcium.
B. I tried a substrate of crushed eggs shells and it really messed up the snails. There was slime everywhere and the shells stuck to them like glue, I assume it cut their feet (foots?). Won't I have the same problem with crushed coral/crushed oyster shells or does the heavier weight and their larger surface area (I assume since eggs shells are thin) make them not as sharp?
C. Some one told me to use rock salt but I don't understand how that would work. Rock salt is sodium chloride but isn't Gh indicative of magnesium and calcium ions? And isn't KH indicative of carbonate ions? So don't I need something that has magnesium, calcium, and carbonates?
D. Some one else told me to mix my own African cichlid lake salt but the ingredients don't include calcium. So... Again, if GH is magnesium and calcium, don't I need calcium as well?

I guess that's all. Thanks to anyone for clearing this up for me.

Random question, what is that clicking noise the bladdersnails make?? I couldn't find anything about that when I did a search.

 

[platytudes]

Before any of this gets answered, it would really help if you would post detailed water chemistry parameters of your tap water, with the KH, GH, and pH. Perhaps I've missed it, but I haven't seen that yet.

Also, do you notice your snails getting pits in their shells?

 

[platytudes]

Ok, I'm signing off for a few hours so I will go ahead and answer what I can:

Do snails need buffered water or not?
They need to be in water that is hard and alkaline. I cannot tell you the precise range they need to be in, and it is different for different snails. For example, Tylos need very specific water chemistry.

Many people have hard and alkaline water already coming right out of their tap, so do not need to add anything to their water since it is acceptable already. To me, "buffered water" implies water that has buffering agent applied to it. If your water chemistry is fine to begin with, then you don't need to buffer it. Again, many people do not need to add anything to their water since it is "liquid rock" already. Florida well water is exactly like this because of the limestone in our water. It's probably the same way in Texas and other places where minerals abound in the water. I would say more places in the U.S. have hard water than not.

Some people have been telling me yes, but others have said no if I feed them a high calcium diet.
If your water is very soft, their shells will get eroded no matter how much calcium they get.

A. Won't acidic water eat away at their shells? Or does eating calcium allow for it to be replenished quick enough so as to negate the eating away at their shells?
Yes, it will. No, I don't think it will negate the effect. Bottom line, snails live longer in the right water chemistry...as do most fish. Livebearers are the same way about needing hard water, even though they don't have shells!

B. If they don't need buffered water, then why is it that all the snails in my aquariums never live long enough to get very big but the snails that I've been keeping in a bucket for weeks with added calcium and baking soda are getting much larger?
I'm sure the added calcium and baking soda is good for them. Why not just add it to your tanks with snails in it? Asking questions is fine, but really...this seems like a no brainer to me. I doubt you are keeping snails in soft water tanks, like breeding tanks for soft water fish or Apistos, etc....right?

Incidentally, since you ask a lot of questions on here, you might consider putting the size of your tanks and their stocking in your signature so people can help you better. When I answer your questions, I have literally no clue what kind of tanks you have.

To buffer my water, what is the best and cheapest choice? I know you guys will probably tell me crushed coral or crushed oyster shells but I have some questions about that.
A. Will oyster shells actually release a reasonable amount of minerals and calcium into the water? I read some where that they aren't very effective because they don't release a lot of minerals and calcium.
"Best" and "cheapest" are two different things usually, don't you think? It might be cheapest to get crushed coral and oyster shells, but there are some big downsides. For 1) thing, I think they're pretty ugly. Yucky white gravel that's going to get covered with algae and mulm and coarse oyster shell that looks like chicken grit...not my idea of an attractive substrate.

Secondly, 2) because they are so coarse, they are big detritus traps if you are going to use them as your substrate. If you were using them with an undergravel filter (the way marine aquariums were in the old days) then they would buffer better because water would be passing through them. That's why crushed coral is recommend more as filter media, because it works better when water is passing through it rather than just sitting there, where it will...

3) Get covered with biofilm, which diminishes its buffering capacity. I'm sure you've used ceramic media before, right? Biomax in the AquaClear filters? When it gets filthy, it's not very effectively providing biological filtration because its pores are jammed with crud. The same is true for crushed coral, when its pores are jammed with crud it doesn't leach the hardness very effectively. That's why if you're going to use crushed coral, it's best in a canister filter, where you can keep two filter socks full of it. You can alternate the socks during maintenance. A soak with hydrogen peroxide and water cleans them nicely.

B. I tried a substrate of crushed eggs shells and it really messed up the snails. There was slime everywhere and the shells stuck to them like glue, I assume it cut their feet (foots?). Won't I have the same problem with crushed coral/crushed oyster shells or does the heavier weight and their larger surface area (I assume since eggs shells are thin) make them not as sharp?
I'm not sure where you got that idea, not a good one at all...save your eggshells for your compost. They don't belong in aquariums at all, unless you can grind them to a powder maybe. Then you could use them as an ingredient in snail jello.

Crushed oyster shells and crushed coral don't feel very sharp to me. I don't think they would cut them. However in my opinion, they are not the best way to buffer your tank, unless you like the look of them as substrate. It's going to be very hard to plant a tank with these materials as substrate. They work well for African cichlid tanks (especially the crushed coral) because these tanks are generally not planted.

C. Some one told me to use rock salt but I don't understand how that would work. Rock salt is sodium chloride but isn't Gh indicative of magnesium and calcium ions? And isn't KH indicative of carbonate ions? So don't I need something that has magnesium, calcium, and carbonates?
If you're thinking of salt in the context of the three part Malawi salt mix recipe, the ideal would be marine salt mix, which already has buffering agents added to it. Sea salt has some of these minerals but marine salt mix has a lot more added to it. Take a look:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/aquarium_salts.php

D. Some one else told me to mix my own African cichlid lake salt but the ingredients don't include calcium. So... Again, if GH is magnesium and calcium, don't I need calcium as well?
It all depends on what your native tap water is like. See above. Water that is naturally hard and alkaline generally has enough calcium.

I don't think it would hurt to add calcium to your water but I am not sure it would dissolve cleanly. I think adding it to the tank in the form of cuttlebone or calcium pills would suffice. This is what most people seem to do, I have never read of anyone grinding up calcium pills and adding it as a water additive. It seems sufficient to just drop in calcium for the snails to eat, and I'm sure it slowly dissolves and is added to the water column over time.

Reefers add calcium to their tanks. If you found some calcium additives that said they were safe for freshwater (even if they were marketed for marine) I'm sure this would be fine to use. I am not sure how necessary it would be, but certainly it wouldn't hurt.

The MSM recipe calls for Epsom salt, baking soda and marine salt. It's a classic recipe that has been used for a long time by cichlid keepers who are trying to achieve pH of 8+ which is difficult without modifying the water. If you're worried about the sodium chloride content (which is negligible if you are starting with the base dose) then you can omit it, and the baking soda and Epsom salts alone will help. However marine salt mix contains a ton of trace elements and is really beneficial, in my opinion. If you don't want to use marine salt mix, for example if your LFS only sells 5 gallon buckets, then sea salt is probably an ok substitute although I doubt it is as good.

Re: crushed coral and oyster shell...in my opinion, expecting these to buffer your water is like expecting driftwood to soften your water. It will, somewhat, but if you want drastic results you need to modify the water chemistry. It is definitely advised that you know your water chemistry and best if you are able to test it regularly.

 

[captmicha]

Before any of this gets answered, it would really help if you would post detailed water chemistry parameters of your tap water, with the KH, GH, and pH. Perhaps I've missed it, but I haven't seen that yet.

Also, do you notice your snails getting pits in their shells?

pH: 6.2 GH: soft-mod. hard 80ppm KH: 3° dkh/53.7ppm

Yes. Their shells are pitted.

I'm sure the added calcium and baking soda is good for them. Why not just add it to your tanks with snails in it? Asking questions is fine, but really...this seems like a no brainer to me. I doubt you are keeping snails in soft water tanks, like breeding tanks for soft water fish or Apistos, etc....right?

Incidentally, since you ask a lot of questions on here, you might consider putting the size of your tanks and their stocking in your signature so people can help you better. When I answer your questions, I have literally no clue what kind of tanks you have.

I can't just add it to the tanks that the snails are in because it would make the water chemistry all wrong for my fish and shrimps. "Keeping them" in soft water tanks has nothing to do with it. They're in there whether I wanted them or not. Recently, I've been collecting them and would like to breed them for when I get puffers.

I'm not sure where you got that idea, not a good one at all...

I came up with it. I don't see why it's a bad idea... Eggs shells are calcium... The snails need calcium and these are free and readily available.

I won't be planting any tank I use crushed coral and oyster shells in. I just wanted to use it in a snail breeding tank.

I don't think I remember ever seeing marine salt... Or maybe I just don't remember because I've always though marine and sea salt were the same thing. I buy Oceanic for my hermit crabs... It has trace elements in it, I think.

 

[Mgamer20o0]

platytudes post is right on the money....

To buffer my water, what is the best and cheapest choice?

http://www.greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizers-supplements/gh-booster.html

I can't just add it to the tanks that the snails are in because it would make the water chemistry all wrong for my fish and shrimps.

Eggs shells are calcium... The snails need calcium and these are free and readily available.

thats what you do when you are adding calcium. changing the water chemistry.

in the snail only tanks you using for feeders get the gh buffer and maybe use cuttlebone in the tank as well for extra calcium. its simple do what you think is best. if the fish shrimp wont do as well with the higher ph and buffer for the snails dont worry about it. the snails will just suffer. since they are for feeders anyways i wouldnt worry much.

marine salt is not sea salt.

 

[platytudes]

You can get sea salt at the grocery store, Morton makes some I know for sure. Marine salt you would get at a fish/pet store and has trace elements along with added buffering agents.

Sea salt would be preferable to using kosher salt (which is often recommended as an alternative to aquarium salt) since sea salt is evaporated seawater. Other kinds of culinary salt may be from underground salt deposits rather than evaporated seawater. I linked you to an article about salt above, I still would say that marine salt is an important component of the Malawi salt mix recipe...but sea salt might do in a pinch.

Certainly some shrimp like softer water (like CRS) but red cherry shrimp seem to do better in harder water, although they are adaptable. To keep snails well you will need to buffer your water, that is too soft for most of them. As you can see, just adding baking soda made a difference. How are you adding the calcium to the water?

It all depends on what kind of fish you have, but in my experience fish prefer stability over an ideal water chemistry:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwhardness.htm

If your low alkalinity is making it difficult for you to keep your water stable, it may be beneficial to add some Malawi salt mix to other tanks too, especially if you keep any fish that prefer neutral water and above. It would not take much to bring the water chemistry closer to neutral...but as Mgamer said if you are just raising feeder snails, don't even worry about it, as long as your fish are doing well.

Definitely mix some up for your snail breeding tank and figure out how much you are going to add to the water change water. There are commercial products available if you don't want to make a buffer for yourself:
http://www.marinedepot.com/Seachem_...s_Supplements-Seachem-SC5113-FWADPKDP-vi.html

If all you're trying to do is have a snail breeding tank, using those substrates would be fine. Crushed coral will be more effective at buffering the water, I believe. Buffering would be beneficial not just to keep their shells in shape but also because they will probably breed more prolifically in more alkaline water.

You don't see why it's a bad idea? Eggshells feel horrible to the touch...like little bits of broken glass! Yes, they have calcium, but so do lots of other things. Sometimes when you come up with an idea, it's good to think "I wonder why no one else hasn't thought of this before?" just like the thread on here recently about setting up a saltwater tank with solar salt (water softening salt). Sure a 40 lb bag may only be $4, but it's not the right salt to use for a saltwater aquarium...just common sense, really. If it were ok to use, people would have used it already. People figured out that plain kitty litter made a good aquarium substrate

 

[captmicha]

How are you adding the calcium to the water?

Kent's liquid calcium.

If your low alkalinity is making it difficult for you to keep your water stable, it may be beneficial to add some Malawi salt mix to other tanks too, especially if you keep any fish that prefer neutral water and above. It would not take much to bring the water chemistry closer to neutral...but as Mgamer said if you are just raising feeder snails, don't even worry about it, as long as your fish are doing well.

Nope, I'm not having any problems keeping the water stable. I'll just use the GH buffer or Malawi salt mix to the designated snail breeding tank that I plan on setting up. I don't really want the snails in my fish tanks anyways since they go after fish eggs.

Crushed coral will be more effective at buffering the water, I believe.

Better than aragonite too? I was thinking the MTS would like sand better since they can sift through that easily.

 

[excuzzzeme]

Do not add calcium to the water! Snails are better off with the cuttlebone as was mentioned, crushed egg shells (calcium), TUMS (calcium), dead coral pieces (calcium), and on and on. . . . . .

Liquid calcium does nothing directly. Many of the snails have a pouch in their mouths similar to a chicken gizzard where bits of calcium are stored and absorbed. If they have no ability to acquire calcium, it shows up in the shells. to raise my Ph, I use spa ph treatment as I get about 3 years from a single bottle and the snails and fish are fine with it. Without treatment, my water has a Ph of 6.4-6.8. Spa Ph treatment is nothing more than sodium carbonate

 

[platytudes]

I tried putting an egg shell in the tank, two halves. They completely ignored it for a week, so I just chucked it after that.

I don't think it hurts anything to add liquid calcium, I just don't think it is very effective since it tends to settle out of solution ("snow") and it's kind of expensive considering there are so many other things you could use.

I've never read a definitive answer as to which one provides more buffering, I think aragonite and CC both buffer well, just differently. I believe aragonite dissolves more slowly, so you will get faster results from CC. My guess is they probably do about the same job.

It's a lot easier to vacuum aragonite since debris won't get in between the spaces, the way it would with CC. They do sell crushed coral sand, but it's not common around here (there's either crushed coral gravel or aragonite sand). One advantage of crushed coral is that they sell it in small quantities, a 10 lb bag is about $10 around here.

MTS definitely like to burrow in sand better, but they do just fine in gravel too. I wouldn't feed MTS to your puffers, though!

 

[captmicha]

You don't see why it's a bad idea? Eggshells feel horrible to the touch...like little bits of broken glass!

...So did the crushed coral I felt.

Do not add calcium to the water! Snails are better off with the cuttlebone as was mentioned, crushed egg shells (calcium), TUMS (calcium), dead coral pieces (calcium), and on and on. . . . . .

Crushed egg shells didn't work. See above.

to raise my Ph, I use spa ph treatment as I get about 3 years from a single bottle and the snails and fish are fine with it. Without treatment, my water has a Ph of 6.4-6.8. Spa Ph treatment is nothing more than sodium carbonate

Um, so why don't you just use baking soda?

MTS definitely like to burrow in sand better, but they do just fine in gravel too. I wouldn't feed MTS to your puffers, though!

I think I'll just use pool sand then, with the cichlid mix or GH booster. Why wouldn't you feed MTS to puffers? Do you mean because they have hard shells and might break the puffer's beaks? I wonder if there's an exception for Amazon puffers since they're known for getting overgrown beaks and the hard shells might do them more good than harm? Or not. I thought they just suck the body out of the shell though.