What’s on my Sterbai

[TwoTankAmin]

railer20

If you agree with what I suspect and you want to use what I suggested, then yes Maracyn is a powder packet and is Erythromycin. Maracyn 2 is a different antibiotic and also a powder packet. Sometimes the two are used together. Maracyn Oxy is a liquid. It used to be called Maroxy. I began using it to protect cory eggs from fungus. Methylene blue was/is the preferred treatment, but it tends to stain everything including clothes and skin. So I decided to try the Maroxy. It worked fine and I have kept it as part of my fish medical kit since. (Aside: Methylene blue is the one thing that will remove nitrite from inside a fish. But then you will be staining the tank and much of what is in it. M B has a number of uses for treating an assortment of fish problems.)

I always state when I am willing to give my opinion on from what a fish might be suffering that it is my opinion. I try to give links that will help the fish keeper make a diagnosis. I often state that remote diagnosis is not easy and, being there, they see clearly and have to make the final decision. What I did for railer was to point him in a potential direction. I also suggested treatments for that direction. But I clearly left the decision in his hands.

I guess I have learned nothing in 20 years of keeping fish. I realize 20 tanks are not all that many either. So what do I know? What do the professionals I have spoken with over the years know? What do the people who wrote the papers I link to know? Why did they even bother when all they needed was the loach? I am sure he can name every one of the 23 strains of F. columnare in this study without even reading it. Genotypic Diversity of Strains of Flavobacterium columnare from Diseased Fishes After all it was published in 1999.

My advice was what it was and is based on what I believe is the issue. It appears somebody cannot read. Here is my first post #11

"Hard to tell from the pics. There appears to be fungus, but my bet is that is secondary. I also think it may be columnaris which needs an antibiotic..........

Even if it is a different infection I think the primary issue is bacterial and the secondary is fungus. They both need to be treated, imo. You might want to investigate treating with a combination of Fritz's Mardel Maracyn (antibiotic) and Fritz's Mardel Oxy for the fungus. These meds can be used in combination. However, do a bit of research into " Flavobacterium columnare" which is the scientific name for columnaris......

Please understand that I am sure of the fungus part, but I cannot say for sure re the columnaris."

I gave my opinion and and hedged it all the way through until the very end. That is fungus in the picture, I would bet dollars to donuts on that. People should always remember not to put the keyboard in gear before engaging brain.

I do not post what I am not pretty sure of. I have dealt with fungus and I know what it looks like even if the picture is a bit blurry. I have treated columnaris multiple times over the years, mostly with success. There are a number of ways to treat columnaris that are not easy for most in the hobby to use- Diquat is one. Too bad the loach knows nothing about it. When I first learned about using Diquat on Finarama, I posted a warning about it being dangerous to handle and if one wants to use it to make sure they are careful.

Re: Diquat Dibromide. Could it be our new panacea? At least

Ed- I am always interested in the neat stuff you find, I had seen the 2004 research article on using chlormine to treat columnaris. However, in terms of Diquat dibromide I think is is important to read this: http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/ex ... t-ext.html

If you decide to experiment with this substance, it indicates that one needs to be cautious. Please be careful.

Edited to correct spelling and grammar.

Last edited by TwoTankAmin on Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

What makes the common man uncommon is common sense.

More interesting was that I found this. But I cannot get to the study w/o paying or having institutional access:

Environmental considerations in the development of diquat and paraquat as aquatic herbicides
A Calderbank - Outlook on Agriculture, 1972 - journals.sagepub.com
… sunfish and brown trout. Figure water. Days after treatment Diquat has been found effective in controlling bacterial gill disease and columnaris disease in hatchery pond populations of silver salmon. There was no evidence …

It indicates that as far back as 1972 it was learned that Diquat worked against columnaris. The problem is that most of the research papers into fish medications/treatments are done for fish which are for human consumption. The ornamental side is a whole different thing.

 

[mistyseim]

Looks like a fungal infection. Check the water perimeter for NH and NO. Check the PH level as well. Did you wash your filter with de-chlorinated water? Get a chopstick and poke deep into the substrate. Observe if there are bubbles coming out of it. Does it smell like rotten eggs? Better to put them on a hospital tank in the meantime.

 

[the loach]

That is fungus in the picture, I would bet dollars to donuts on that. People should always remember not to put the keyboard in gear before engaging brain.

So, what fungus is it?

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Lets try to simplify this stuff to a level the average fish keep can understand. But let's start by considering humans as they will make it easier to understand.

So you get a lump someplace on your bidy and have no idea what it is. Do some research and you may find it is just a bruise, could be a cycst or, perish the thought, cancer. And there are many other possibilities in between. Learning what the problem may be usually means a trip to the doctor. Do you make an appointment with your general practitioner, a surgeon or an oncologist? The answer is we start with the GP.

We do this because the odds say the bruise the cysts are the more likely and that cancer is not.

So now you think your fish may have fungus. Yes there are multiple kinds, but as the paper I will now link you too will teach you, they are not all equally common, come from different causes and you and the loach can no more identify them than can I.

Yanong RP. Fungal diseases of fish. Vet Clin North Am Exot Anim Pract. 2003 May;6(2):377-400. doi: 10.1016/s1094-9194(03)00005-7. PMID: 12836630.
https://www.academia.edu/download/40381721/Fungal_diseases_of_fish20151125-14138-mrav96.pdf

But let's not end this discussion here. Let's move on to some more common sense. Let's assume one suspects that they have a fungal issue and that they need to treat it. Most keepers will search for treatments. Leaving behind salt, what meds might they find?

1. Methylene blue
2. Mardel Maracin Oxy
3. Mardel Bactershield
4. API Fungus CureFungal Diseases pn Fish
5. API PimaFix
6. Hikari Ich-X
7. Interpret Anti Fungus & Finrot Plus
8. Seachem PolyGuard
9. SeaChem Sulfaplex
10. SeaChem Neoplex
11. Tetra Fungus Guard
12. Kordon Rid Fungis

I got tired of looking for more products. But I wonder if the loach would like to tell us which fungus each of the above might treat and how he might select one. Because this information is not included on a single one of those products. they are merely labelled as treating fungus Maybe also explain what is different between them and then how to know the exact fungus one may have and then whichtreatment to choose? I will make this easier as well. Lets limit things to the external fungi and ignore the internal ones which we cannot see in any case.

Now if you want a bit more info on different fungi, here is a nice read from the Univ. Of Florida Fungal Diseases of Fish

Here is the real nitty gritty of this. Most fish keepers do not have access to the university or labs which can determine exactly what fungus or bacteria is in our tank. You need an electron microscope for most bacteria, I doubt any of us have one. You can examine many parasites this way.

What this still all boils down to, in most cases, is our best guess. While I may be reasonably certain I am seeing a fungus, that doesn't mean I know exactly which one. For the most part, fungus and even parasite meds are not really tough on fish. I would rather treat with an unneeded fungal med than an unneeded bacterial one or some of the other cures that can be quite harsh.

Moreover, the research I have read over the years indicates there are few fast and firm rules. Read and you will see that anti-biotics tend to fall into three groups, thsse that are used against gram negative, gram positive bacteria or are broad spectrum. But then we discover that some don't work against all gram negative or positive bacteria but will also cross the gram line as well.

Another good example here iare the very nitrifying bacteria we all need. They can be killed by antibiotics. Nitrosomonas are gram negative. This would suggest treating your tank with an antibiotic effective against gram negative bacteria should harm ones filter. However, the nitrifying bacteria in our tanks live inside a biofilm attached to hard surfaces. And this matters,

Stewart PS. Mechanisms of antibiotic resistance in bacterial biofilms. Int J Med Microbiol. 2002 Jul;292(2):107-13. doi: 10.1078/1438-4221-00196. PMID: 12195733.

Abstract
Bacteria that attach to a surface and grow as a biofilm are protected from killing by antibiotics. Reduced antibiotic susceptibility contributes to the persistence of biofilm infections such as those associated with implanted devices. The protective mechanisms at work in biofilms appear to be distinct from those that are responsible for conventional antibiotic resistance. In biofilms, poor antibiotic penetration, nutrient limitation and slow growth, adaptive stress responses, and formation of persister cells are hypothesized to constitute a multi-layered defense. The genetic and biochemical details of these biofilm defenses are only now beginning to emerge. Each gene and gene product contributing to this resistance may be a target for the development of new chemotherapeutic agents. Disabling biofilm resistance may enhance the ability of existing antibiotics to clear infections involving biofilms that are refractory to current treatments.

Yes this re diseases, but this applies to nitrifying biofilms as well. Don't take my word for this, go here and take your pick
antibiotic resistance in nitrifying biofilms


I am not a veterinarian, I am not a chemist, I am not a biologist. What I am is a person who knows where to find answers. I learned long before most here were even born that I could never know the answer to most things let alone everything. What I did learn was how to find answers when I need them. I do not have an eidetic memory, but I am able to recall the subjects I have read about and usually where I read them. Today I can find the information more easily in the future because I can I bookmark it.

When I learned how to research there were no PCs, smart phones or even decent calculators. When I went to college slide rules were the thing. The earliest hand held calculator in 1967 printed out the result on paper tape. The first true hand held LED display in 1971 only did addition, subtraction multiplication and division. My research was done in libraries.

Here is the real truth- learning is not just putting a search term into Google and using the first answer or two that comes up. Real knowledge take effort and time to acquire. That is why my posts tend to be so long. They are intended to contain information that can help readers learn. In some cases they may learn I am completely wrong. Most often when this happens I am also told so and pointed in the right direction and I change my thinking afterwards. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong.

 

[the loach]

and you and the loach can no more identify them than can I.

So you can't identify the fungus, yet you are sure it is one. Which fungus is it, that makes you think it is a fungus?

 

[Sprinkle]

Ugh stop bickering it no for ym mood rn…

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Sprinkle
Just don't read it. Nobody is forcing you. Most of it requires more education than one has at your age in order to understand it.

Before I go further lets take a quick look at this thread. Railer20 began by looking for help.

- Looking at the pictures they seemed clear enough to indicate something at work that would likely, if left untreated, have a bad result.
- Several people, myself included offered ideas.
- In the 17th post the loach offered one actionable suggestion, " If you insist on trying anti biotics only do this in a hospital tank." Of course at the time he also must have known that whatever it was it was not loose in the home tank and nothing would stay behind so nothing else would catch it?
- Since that post the loach has offered no actionable advice to railer20 at all.


One of my links above was bad, sorry this is it Fungal diseases of fish Roy P.E. Yanong, VMD

The water molds
The water molds are the most common of all fungal pathogens of freshwater and brackish water fish. The cottony appearance of the
filamentous network of cells (hyphae), collectively referred to as the mycelium, is familiar to most fish clinicians. Saprolegnia, Achlya, and
Aphanomyces are the genera typically isolated, although several other genera, including Branchiomyces (currently classified in this group based on anatomic morphology [anamorph]), have been described in aquacultured and wild species [6].

The water molds differ from true fungi in several important ways. At one life stage, unicellular, biflagellated zoospores with two different types of flagella are produced. Nuclei within the fungal hyphae are diploid. Their cell wall is comprised of cellulose and glycans, and not chitin, found in Eumycotan fungi.

Clinical signs and pathology associated with Saprolegnia, Achlya, and several other genera differ from those seen in Aphanomyces infections and Branchiomyces infections, so each of these will be discussed separately.

I believe the fungus in question to be there is likely one of the Saprolegnia. This would still require microscopic identification to confirm it without any possibility of doubt. So, I could be wrong.

Saprolegniasis is a disease of freshwater and brackish water species caused by Saprolegnia, although several other related species of Oomycetes such as Achlya, all ubiquitous in soil and freshwater, can present clinically in a similar way. Saprolegniasis typically is seen as cottony white, gray, brown, red, or greenish masses [6,7] on skin or gills of freshwater or brackish fish. Initial affected areas may be small; however, the fungi can spread rapidly and cover most of the body (Fig. 1). Occurrence may be acute, but duration is often chronic.

So how should one treat this. Because, it is not a food fish, there are multiple options. Even salt.

For aquarium (nonfood) fish, more aggressive therapy, including use of combination antibacterial/ antifungal ointments, can increase survival significantly if only one or a small number of fish are affected. Anesthesia, followed by daily application of ointment to the affected areas for approximately 30 seconds has proven effective, provided that predisposing factors have been eliminated or reduced. Increasing salinity to upper tolerance levels for the fish species also is recommended in these instances.

For small-scale, aquarium fish operations or hobbyist-level production, control can include manual removal of infected eggs to reduce spread. For commercial operations, antifungal agents used for fish eggs are similar to those used for fish.

Most of us are simply not going to use ointments. That leaves the other options. The list of such things available easily to fish keepers are the dozen things I listed in a post above. If you investigate any of them you wont see the names of the specific fungus or fungi on which it will work. I wonder why. Do we think these companies are all selling snake oil? Will these products not work. Do we think they will harm fish?

There is one nice part to all this. If one has the wrong treatment for anything (including me here), the problem will not lessen or go away. If one is treating the more common fungi effectively, that should normally be apparent in fairly short order. That should also help to reveal what is under it. However, when some fungus run rampant, they can be much more difficult to eliminate. Surprisingly, we can tell when fungus is not going away and that we therefor are dealing with one which needs more targeted diagnosis and treatment.

But in the end, whether I am correct or not will depend on the outcome. But, I also believe if railer20 did nothing at all, his fish might not live full long lives. So, I did what most of us have to do in such a situation, we take our best shot. I doubt the meds I suggested will kill the fish. Not being the right ones could. But what options did the loach offer specifically?

I am sorry but I do not see any point to most of what the loach posted in this thread. I do not see how it offered any help to the original poster what-so-ever? All it did was to attack me. At least what I offered can be used by members to learn things to help them in the hobby if they have the patience. They can learn from the links and quotes. They can learn, because if railer20 follows my advice and it is decent, the fish should show it (no guarantees). If railer20 listened to what the loach suggested in the thread and did nothing, we will see how the fish did as well. Of course railer20 may be trying something else entirely.

Hopefully he will post what he tried and how it worked out. This is how we all learn what works and what doesn't in this hobby for the most part.

 

[fishorama]

I agree with you TTA, as I often do, as to treatment options. Some "fungi" are really "fuzzy" bacteria, but some meds treat both. I couldn't tell from railer's pics what his issue is, you saw fungus...I saw what looked like columnaris to me...so I would suggest a med or combo that treats both as a starting point. Doing nothing will result in dead fish & frustration...& maybe more fish deaths. Some of the "old school meds" like salt &/or methylene blue can work for many issues if you don't know what your fish may have. I always start with big water changes when "something's wrong" but a gram positive & gram negative antibactial isn't a bad place to start treatment either. Pick a drug or 2 & stick with it. No treatment "fixes" every disease in 3 -5 days no matter what anyone would like to believe & most need suppotive care like water changes, vacuuming etc.

Good luck railer, let us know what you try, how much & what effect it had. Even negative info helps us all to learn, there are no perfect answers because we are all making educated guesses based on pics & our own experiences & research.

 

[the loach]

I am sorry but I do not see any point to most of what the loach posted in this thread. I do not see how it offered any help to the original poster what-so-ever? All it did was to attack me.

Again, not true. I didn't attack you and I didn't tell Railer to do nothing. I just told the truth, which is this sterbai can't possibly be diagnosed by a blurry picture, not all fish or diseases can be cured, I am not giving him false hope.

Two tank is projecting;

I am sorry but I do not see any point to most of what the loach posted in this thread.

I do not see how it offered any help to the original poster what-so-ever? All it did was to attack me

Too bad the loach knows nothing about it.

People should always remember not to put the keyboard in gear before engaging brain.

If you don't believe me check my posts for yourself in this thread (the 2 last ones are only 1 sentence... the links appear much larger as the posts are)

What’s on my Sterbai

Hard to tell from the pics. There appears to be fungus, but my bet is that is secondary. I also think it may be columnaris which needs an antibiotic. sprinkle is in the UK and the best fish meds there are hard to get without a vet. Here is the states we can get them all. There are multiple cures...

www.aquariacentral.com

What’s on my Sterbai

@railer20 If you agree with what I suspect and you want to use what I suggested, then yes Maracyn is a powder packet and is Erythromycin. Maracyn 2 is a different antibiotic and also a powder packet. Sometimes the two are used together. Maracyn Oxy is a liquid. It used to be called Maroxy. I...

www.aquariacentral.com

What’s on my Sterbai

@railer20 If you agree with what I suspect and you want to use what I suggested, then yes Maracyn is a powder packet and is Erythromycin. Maracyn 2 is a different antibiotic and also a powder packet. Sometimes the two are used together. Maracyn Oxy is a liquid. It used to be called Maroxy. I...

www.aquariacentral.com

And he is just wrong as well about this being Saprolegnia. It is characterized by distinct white hairs, at this time it would look like this:

More pictures from fish with Saprolegnia... https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/10-7-fish-saprolegnia/

 

[Sprinkle]

Sprinkle
Just don't read it. Nobody is forcing you. Most of it requires more education than one has at your age in order to understand it.

It the thread am follow so cant take break from read it ;(