what exactly can ich survive?

[dundadundun]

one of our moderators just replied back to me in a post and the answer has me baffled.
star_rider said this: "the plant bulbs in the packages on the shelf?
those will not have ich . ich is a parasite and needs a host. the 'eggs' will not live on a dry bulb."

as far as i know ich is a protazoan and some protazoa can stay in a dormant state for a substantial amount of time when in their "egg" form only to revive when the right conditions are met... even being dried out.

explanation time i guess...

ok, it was a while back but here goes.

i had fish in my tank and was doing reading online constantly as i wanted to do more than what i had done. basically i did not like my tank and takashi amano was everywhere when i searched. so i decided to switch things up a little and add some plants. was still fighting the wife on it when we saw apon and lily bulbs at walmart and decided to get some. everything was going great, fish were in there (all of them) for at least 3-4months. we brang the bulbs home and threw them in and bam 3 days later ich everywhere. i could see tiny white dots all over the water column and there were my fish gasping for air. first one, then two, then four... i am freaking out, researching, buying salt, ridich, quickure and adjustable heaters like crazy. it seemed to take forever and then i can see the home stretch. lost 2 fish but all in all i considered it a triumph. all the while i was doing daily water changes, removing carbon and i was very diligent about water testing at the time so things seemed to be ok up till then.

time goes by... add new fish without a q/t... episode 2 (yeah i know i was a dummy... my fault as i knew better)... same deal as last time just this time i lost 2 "dwarf lilies" and a couple apons... no fish!

i finnished stocking in that tank and waited a bit more questioning if i'd done something wrong... months go by (3-4 again)... get more bulbs, drop them in and the whole episode 1 again (without the fish loss). the weird thing is during this time is when i was testing my water every day (i rarely test now) and nothing ever came up. nothing before, during and only a quick mini cycle (no ammonia, just nitrites) after the first time (that was the longest treatment time).

before star_rider wrote that i was sure (had never found anything saying otherwise) ich "eggs" could be dried out and "come back".
now i'm thinking the only other option is there was something going on that could not be tested.

please could someone shed some light on this subject as i am baffled for a positive explanation.

the tests i was using included (but are not limited to) the red sea fresh lab deluxe and api's freshwater master test kit. so yeah i'm floored on this one.

thanks in advance for any and all help.

 

[excuzzzeme]

As Star_Rider stated Ich must have a host. Ich can lay dormant in a fish indefinitely. It is extremely hard to completely eradicate. Your fish were probably exposed to ich prior to your acquisition. Just because you don't see any signs doesn't mean it isn't present. They are suseptible to the different medications/cures only when active.

Some of the things that can cause an outbreak are: water that is too cold, not clean enough, stress, etc. High nitrites are not good and can induce stress.

 

[dundadundun]

ok... that's understood... what else?
what could trigger it that i could not see or test?
the nitrites were after treatment because the media was affected and bacteria broke down/died i presume.

remember, these are 3 different cases over the course of a year... lucky me... lol. or better yet stupid me if you feel it fits (no offense of course, i sure did).

 

[mel_20_20]

This is very unsettling to me. I am in the final stretch with Ich and I hoped that once I'm done with this bout that there would never ever be another chance for Ich to show up in my tank, as long as I quarantine new occupants.

Now, I'm hearing that it may always be in your tank on one or more of your fish, waiting for the right moment of weakness in your fish.

Oh, lord....... help meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...........

 

[dundadundun]

yuppers... that was a fun fact to learn that almost made me give up my first time. practicing cautions and keeping your setup clean works wonders though. chances are you may never have the joy again. unlike me most people learn their lesson the first time... but i learned my lesson well. i am just baffled by this one detail... will the cysts persist and repopulate if dried up? and another actually... if not what is it that could be the deciding factor that cannot be tested? or might it have been that i was too paranoid and changed too much water, but i doubt 20% every 5-7 days would be a likely cause. no sick fish until just before salt like wounds and/or heavy respiration followed by afforementioned. to top it off at the time a google search netted me quite a handful of people also suspecting that the bulbs from walmart may be a culprit for harboring cysts. i now can only find a couple who are quickly discredited by senior forum members and are told they did something wrong. at the least i'd say that the fungus growing on said bulbs may be connected to poor, yet indetectable water quality. the problem here is i have neither the space, tanks, disposable fish (imo) nor the cash flow right now to set up a control and test it. i gather i'd have to test thousands of these bulbs to get a decent comparison anyway as these results seemed sporadic originally and even less common now judging by my search results.

did i mention i'm baffled?

 

[excuzzzeme]

That is one of the curses of Ich. You may never know the trigger. 20% every 5-7 days may not be enough. test your water daily for one week and watch the parameters change. Everyday at the same time of day. Record your results. You will then be able to tell if more or larger changes are needed.

I change a minimum of 30% weekly. But if the water is more than a few degrees off, I will see just one or two spots until 2 days after water has reached temp.

 

[dundadundun]

that is what i am saying... i did do the research! first for a month and a half all day, everyday. then the second and third times while i was treating again. same regimen... all day everyday. that's almost 2 months of reading nothing but ich information. as well as 3 successful treatments. still i have never seen anyone claim the cysts cannot regenerate once dry til now. being i got that from a moderator who so plainly stated it as fact i suppose i should believe it. so i am now coming to accept it as truth and am looking for another explanation.

i assure you my water quality was of the utmost and even slight changes would have been extremely noticeable because before my first outbreak once a day testing was not always enough for me. after the first (and successive) treatments twice a day was the norm for a while. oh and i don't believe in relying on 1 (even brand of) thermometer... so no definitely not an issue either. also all the equipment used then is still in use today and all parties involved seem to be doing fine!

i can also say that those @#$%^&9 bulbs were the only difference 2 out of 3 times and the other time i know exactly what introduced it. the sad fact is nothing EVER showed up on a test worth noting BEFORE, DURING OR AFTER any treatments or outbreaks.

i have a test for everything you can get at a lfs even remotely pertaining to fresh water... and even some salt water tests just in case. i am very anal about some things and my pets are a lot of those things!

i am currently housing a farlowella, amanos, sinodontis negriventis, male guppies, 2 sae's (with brown anal spots that definitely eat bba for those who may know), a female betta, a clithon corona, a zebra nerite, mts and ramshorns in my 50 gallon planted and everyone's doing great. i have read d walstad's book "??ecology of the planted tank??", followed tom barr to countless sights and am a member on the barr report, followed chuck gladd, discovered rexx grigg and found and read about 5-6 of takashi amanos translated works.

i get it!

what i need... well want to know is if there may be something that those bulbs introduced to the tank that cannot be tested for that may have been a trigger.
please i need (inside my head) another explanation, not a regurgitation of information readily available on the web.

 

[Lupin]

Ich dormant indefinitely? This is where I would disagree. They simply reside in the gill tissues and will strike if the opportunity rises. If the temperature is elevated, the ich will simply develop and reproduce at a very fast rate and if there are no fish around as hosts in the last 72 hours, the ich eventually are eliminated due to starvation.

we brang the bulbs home and threw them in and bam 3 days later ich everywhere. i could see tiny white dots all over the water column and there were my fish gasping for air.

Unless the ich latch on the fish, you cannot see ich floating around the water column with your naked eyes. Your statement above does not indicate it is ich. Are the ich actually latching on your fish? If your fish is gasping, then list down ammonia and nitrite intoxication, gill flukes and depleted oxygen as the main causes.

There are far worse things than getting ich in your tank. Ich is very easy to battle with salt and heat. I used that combination with my catfish, loaches, severums and plenty other fish with no issues. If you are worried about your snails, you can remove them and place them in a tank with no fish for at least a week. The ich will simply die of starvation as they needed the fish as their hosts, not the snails.

 

[Jennie Beth]

Not a fish expert by any means, but I am a gardener. Alot of bulbs, seeds, etc, are coated with pesticides, anti-fungals, even fertilizers, to keep them disease-free and ensure they germinate or sprout when planted. I wonder if there was something on the bulbs (the white stuff you saw in the water?) that caused your fish problems. Something toxic or maybe just irritating enough to cause gasping, etc. Maybe even an allergic reaction? Lily bulbs are toxic to people, I know...
Found this list of plants toxic to fish, and there are at least two lilies on it...not sure what kind you had...
http://www.cnykoi.com/articles/plantpoisonous.asp

Jen

 

[dundadundun]

Ich dormant indefinitely? This is where I would disagree. They simply reside in the gill tissues and will strike if the opportunity rises. If the temperature is elevated, the ich will simply develop and reproduce at a very fast rate and if there are no fish around as hosts in the last 72 hours, the ich eventually are eliminated due to starvation.


Unless the ich latch on the fish, you cannot see ich floating around the water column with your naked eyes. Your statement above does not indicate it is ich. Are the ich actually latching on your fish? If your fish is gasping, then list down ammonia and nitrite intoxication, gill flukes and depleted oxygen as the main causes.

There are far worse things than getting ich in your tank. Ich is very easy to battle with salt and heat. I used that combination with my catfish, loaches, severums and plenty other fish with no issues. If you are worried about your snails, you can remove them and place them in a tank with no fish for at least a week. The ich will simply die of starvation as they needed the fish as their hosts, not the snails.

i knew this was coming... i have seen this before. lupin... you are a genius at your art and reading your posts is always a pleasure. please don't take anything the wrong way.

i do not believe they are dormant very long, but whether they can be dry and come back... that is my question. i have no idea how long the factory stores those bulbs but both times they were brand new on the shelf that day.

as for seeing things... noone else could either. i personally could only see light displacement in the tank as if it were floating dust particles noone else seems to see either. my eyes are amazing... as a kid i could read the fine lines on the eye chart. you know the one that says it's made in georgia. i do not expect anyone else to see what i see and have learned to live with that.

this is not a new issue and i've not had ich in over 2 years. gills did not turn red and the final outcome of the dead fish and a few others was holes burst in the side turning white like large grains of salt. if the tank is cycled and test no nitrite or ammonia that cannot be the cause. with plants and an airstone and no co2 lack of oxygen is highly unlikely especially if red gills are not involved imo.

i assure you i am not trying to be a pest, i just don't understand... which is not usual or acceptable for me. i may not speak in technical terms but have never had a problem properly translating them.

thank you for your time and responses... i am sure there will be more that will not get me anywhere as people either just don't believe it or want to believe it's my fault... understandable, but i do believe this topic will be done before i find what i seek... i could be wrong though.