Where did my nitrites go? (and other questions)

C

canucks

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Feb 10, 2003
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Hello. I have discovered a wall of confusion in the last couple days. Maybe I will start by giving the info that I have recorded since the beginning of my cycle:

NH3 | NO2 | NO3 | pH
----------------------
18/02/03- 4.9 | - | - | 7.6

19/02/03- ~1.5 | 0.8 | - | -

20/02/03- ~1.5 |~1.6 | - | 7.4

21/02/03- 2.4 | 1.6 | - | 7.4

22/02/03- out of town

23/02/03- 1.4 | 1.6 | - | 7.4

24/02/03- 2.4 | 1.6 | - | 7.0

25/02/03- 2.8 | 1.6 | - | 6.0

26/02/03- 2.4 | 1.6 | - | 6.0

27/02/03- 2.4 | 1.6 | - | 6.0

28/02/03- 2.4 | 1.6 | - | 6.0
*started adding only 1/2 amount of regular ammo dose
01/03/03- 3.0 | 1.8 | - | 6.0

02/03/03- 2.4 | 1.6 |off chart| 6.0

03/03/03- 2.0 | 1.6 | - | -6.0

*performed big water change and cleaned gravel, (too well, in my ignorance). Started dosing to 5ppm again. I was concerned about muck and algae growth. And now I regret it...

04/03/03- 2.4 | 1.6 | - | 6.8

05/03/03- 1.2 | 0.5 | 20 | -6.0

06/03/03-
} out of town, landlady dosed to 5ppm 07/03/03-

08/03/03- 4.9 | 0.3 | - | 7.2

09/03/03- 2.4 | 0.1 | 20 | -6.0

10/03/03-+2.4 |-0.1 | - | -6.0

11/03/03- 2.4 | 0.1 | - | -6.0

12/03/03-+2.4 | 0.1 | - | -6.0
*no dose
13/03/03-+1.2 | 0.1 | 20 | -6.0

I hope this is comprehensive enough, (and neccessary!!). I guess my nitrites dropped becuase I basically cleaned all my nitrosomas bacteria out of the tank on the 3rd? ( I'm SUCH a DORK!! arrrrrrgggh...). So last night I reseeded the tank wih some gravel and the filter from my feeder goldfish tank (for the turtles) which had a nitrite count of +1.6, and I am currently running the filter from my new aquarium in the feeders tank. This should work, right? Soooo, my confusion lies in these questions:

1. Shouldn't the ammonia level drop first and then the nitrites? (after peaking, of course).
2. Is it normal for my pH to be so low? Tap water is 6.8.
3. Won't I lose all (or most) of my bacteria when I remove the containers of gravel and the old filter media at the end of the cycle? Like, how do you get the bacteria to colonize on the new media??
4. This doesn't have much to do with the other questions, but when should I add plants? Is the same day that I add the fish OK? Is it fine to just rinse them in chlorinated tap water, and give them a good check for snails? My lfs is a really great and reliable bunch of folks,
I've been dealing with them for ~7 years.

Thanks for humoring me. I know some of these questions are probably not really that big of a deal to all you experts out there, but I really didn't realize how involved fishkeeping is! I am enjoying it so far (even though I don't have any fish yet!!!) and it's mostly due to all the wonderful info posted on this site by such knowledgeable people. Thanks a bunch!!

Go Canucks!!!
 
Let's see if we can figure some of this out... this is an interesting puzzle.

First of all, your water change and gravel cleaning shouldn't have done much damage to the biofilter (nitrosomas apparently aren't that important in FW tanks as we once believed, but that's a quibble...). The oxidizing bacteria attach firmly to surfaces and won't be dislodged by gravel vacuuming.

A couple possible things that may have happened: if you had a LOT of algae, it may have been scavenging ammonia and confusing your testing results a bit. Also, if you cleaned the tank walls well, you might have dislodged some of the beneficial bacteria.

That's not what I think is primarily responsible for the drop off of nitrite production, though. I suspect your pH has dropped sufficiently that the beneficial bacteria are slowing down or stopping their consumption of ammonia. I'm assuming your test only goes as low as pH of 6.0. If so, your pH could be considerably lower, and there's lots of evidence that lower pH values (e.g., 5) result in impairment/death of the beneficial bacteria.

Why the drop in pH from 7.6 to sub-6.0? You don't give us figures for carbonate hardness (KH), but I'd wager to guess that you have very low KH in your water. KH serves to buffer water, taking up acids in the water and thus maintaining the stability of the water's pH. A byproduct of the oxidization of ammonia/nitrite is acid (bioacidification); this acid is absorbed by the carbonates and bicarbonates in the water until they're saturated. At that point, the acids start to lower the pH. This sort of pH drop in low KH water is commonly seen in tanks that are cycling.

What can you do? Test the water (or ask your LFS to test it) to see what your KH is. If it is indeed low/nonexistent, you need to get add some buffering capacity to your water by way of increasing KH. You can add baking soda as a short term fix. My experience with baking soda is that it's hard to maintain stable KH (and by extension, pH) when using it, especially with water changes. I prefer adding some crushed coral to the tank. A bit in a nylon stocking, stuck in the filter should do the trick; start with a couple tablespoons and measure KH every several days over a couple weeks. KH should stabilze and you'll be able to see if you need to add or subtract some of the coral in the filter.

After the tank has cycled (i.e., you're getting zero ammonia/nitrites 24 hours after dosing with ammonia), you can remove the starter gravel. The bulk of the beneficial bacteria will inhabit the most preferential spots: this is generally in the filter and on the uppermost layer of gravel. As long as you don't remove the filter media or lots of the gravel, you should be OK.

I'm not an authority on plants, but from what I've read, it's generally best to hold off planting until the fishless cycle is through. Otherwise, as I understand it, there are likely to be significant algae problems.

Sorry for the long reply... I hope it's helpful.

Jim
 
I LOVE long replies! Thanks for your info, Jim. I had no idea that KH affected pH. I will call my lfs and ask them about it, (we share the same h2o supply). As for the gravel cleaning, well, I REALLY cleaned it..., like, ground the vacuum into the gravel and turned it all over. So would this maybe have buried and consequenty suffocated the bacteria??? I don't know, just trying to guess... In retrospect, I didn't have all that much algae, it probably would have been fine if I had left it til the end of my cycle... I just jumped the gun. Oh, the woes of being new at something. Oh well, thanks again for your info, I will act on it asap. Please keep the replies comin'! The more the merrier!!
 
Just an update for anyone who may be interested... I called my LFS and asked for their opinion on things. First off, I was informed that they do not recommend fishless cycling. (????). And then that our water is indeed soft. I got a GH/KH test kit as well. our GH is -20 from the tap and 60 in the tank; KH is -10 from the tap AND in the tank. So on the advice of JSchmidt and my LFS I crushed up some old sea shells I had and put them in a nylon and then into my filter that had been in the feeder tank for about 24hrs, and then put the filter back into new aquarium. Then I tesed my pH and nitrites about 2hrs later, (I hate not knowing about somethings), and then 2hrs after that. And the last time I checked, nitrites were (are), on the rise! Yay! Now, should I be aiming for a pH of about 7.0? Our tap h2o is 6.8. And also, will I have to leave the shells in there for all time? AND, should I shoot for a KH of about +80? I'd like to keep catfish, a pleco, some neons and a couple gouramis, with a moderate amount of plants. Thanks for your replies.
 
It doesn't mean much that your LFS doesn't recommend fishless cycling. LFSs are notorious for giving bad advice and recommending expensive products to 'cure' non-problems. Always take anything they say with a large grain of salt.

One thing I don't understand: you say your KH is -10 and your GH is -20 from the tap. I don't think you can have negative values for these -- the lowest is zero. Can you explain?

I'm surprised your addition of crushed shells had such a quick effect. It usually takes at least a few days to see much of a jump in KH. As for your target, I'd shoot for 80-100 ppm KH. That may bring your pH up a bit, but if it stays below 7.4 or 7.5, I wouldn't worry about it. If KH starts overshooting 100 ppm, you might want to remove some of the shells until you find the right amount to just keep KH at 100 ppm or so. You will want to leave them in there, because they work by dissolving slowly and replenishing any KH used up by normal acidifying process in the tank (like the oxidizing of ammonia & nitrites).

A caution: despite what your LFS may say, DON'T buy a product to mess with your pH. Even if you pH goes up (and the KH should drive it up a bit), you don't need to adjust pH. Trust me, it will just cause more problems if you start adding junk to control pH.

HTH,
Jim
 
Yes, to second what Jim says about your LFS and fishless cycling - just ignore them ;)

I frequent 2 LFS - When I was checking out some fish while my new tanks cycled Iand they asked if I needed any help - I would explain I am just looking while my tank cycles. One thought I escaped from some asylum when I was telling them how I fishlessly cycled the tank - they just didn't believe/ understand the concept. The other, better store understood it but really didn't trust it or endorse it.

So stick with what you find here on fishless cycling - not at your LFS
 
Ya, I chose to ignore my LFS opinion on fishless cycling, I mean I'm doing it already and it makes alot more sense to me. Until lately, that is...
Superstein, I've been adding ammonia everyday. About halfway through, I was re-reading the article by Chris Cow and realized he recommends cutting the dose in half (at some point I can't remember), and so I did. Then I got nervous about the algae and muck, and posted a question, and got some advice to do a MODERATE cleaning and nearly complete h20 change, and then dose to 5ppm. So I did, (only I think I did go a little ovrboard on the cleaning...), and have been dosing to 5ppm since then, until I noticed that my nitrites were droppin while ammonia was not. (Am I making sense to you? :) At which point, I stopped dosing for 2 days, while I posted this thread and wait for info on wat was happening.
JSchmidt, I typed my hardness readings wrong, I mean that they are LESS THAN 10 and 20. Oops, sorry...
On the topic of messing aroung with my pH...I'd like to do it as little as possible, and will definitely NOT buy chemical products to screw around with stuff-I'm confused enough as it is, the more I think about what's going on in my tank, the more questions I come up with, like:

What's gonna happen when I do a water change now that I have shells in there? I thought that the pH from our tap water is a perfect one for keeping the fish I want. (6.8) When I do water changes, is my pH going to fluctuate all the time? Oh wait, the shells are a pH STABILIZER, right? Still...
and
How long does it USUALLY take for a calcium carbonate source to affect the acidity? I've got about 23 days that I can give this tank my full attention and then I will be in and out of town for days at a time...Have I started something I won't be able to finish?? I guess I'm probably overreacting, I just was kind of expecting to have fish in there by now, we bought the tank about a month ago... O well, all part of the process... Thanks for your info and interest, guys! Hope I've given you the info you need...
 
Canucks - Ok, you are dosing your ammonia back up to 5ppm - correct? you are not adding 5ppm each day - right?

For your ammonia readings, when are you taking them - ie when you say you have a measurement of 2.4 ammonia, how many hours is that after you last added ammonia to get up to 5ppm?

the reason I ask is you can overdose with ammonia and inhibit the bacteria you need from growing quickly.

Plus for instance, the last 5 days - you are showing Ammonia at 2.4 (except for the last day at 1.2) and nitrite at .1
Thus, if you are dosing Ammonia back up to 5.0 ppm, how many hours are going by til you get that 2.4 reading?
 
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