I really enjoy forum's especially ones about fish. I am a successful fishkeeper with 50 tanks of my own. I do however have a question for all you folks who offer advice. Why when someone who is obviously a beginner do you all want to know pH, KH, nitrate, and nitrite levels and such? These people are confused to begin with and you start asking them for a ton of info that will cost them a bunch more money to get the answers to. These folks just want to keep a simple fish tank. While all these numbers can be helpful they are not necessary to keep a healthy fish tank. As I said I have 50 tanks and I do not and have never had all these test kits. I have great results and have had a number of species successfully reproduce for me. All you are doing is scaring these people away. Fish keeping can and is a very simple matter so long as a few basic concepts are adhered to. We all know what those are. I guess what I am really trying to say, is when dealing with novice fish keepers we should stick to the KISS method. KISS is short for Keep It Simple Stupid. I really think that some people will get scared off easily by all this high tech talk. Let's continue to give advice but slack up on all the technical stuff for the newbies. Just my two cents worth. Frank.
Why the hard questions?
- Thread starter Darkangel
- Start date
That's fair criticism, Frank . It isn't easy to analyze a post, judge the poster's level of sophistication, and fire off a clear direct suggestion that's do-able for that person.
Having a separate Newbie Forum here at AC is an excellent idea, eh.
Having a separate Newbie Forum here at AC is an excellent idea, eh.
Well, when someone asks "why are my fish dying," and give no info about their tank, it's kind of hard to help them.
Same. I think we may need to know the pH, and the Ammonia if the tank has just been set up, and maybe the NitrAtes, esspicially if they have live plants, but I, like DarkAngel, have never had any other test kits besides pH and Ammonia, the latter of which I don't even think works. Maybe if we still can't come up with a solution with this info, we can tell them to take their water to an LFS and have it tested, and ask if they test for all the kH and stuff, this way they don't have to buy a new test kit.
When someone asks why are my fish dying? Do you really think knowing those parameters are going to help you nail down the problem? I would think better luck and advise would be had starting with the simple stuff. Water temp, heater, light type, feeding schedule, water changes and compatibility problems. I really doubt that PH has killed a lot of fish in peoples tanks. We tend to buy our fish in the same places we live, which means we use the same water as the store. If there was something really wierd about the local water I would expect the store to tell people. I think that a need to know all these numbers should only be needed once all other problems are eliminated. People who ask this question really do not want a lesson in chemistry. They want simple answers with things they can do. As far as judging a persons skill level the question and information provided are a pretty good indication of their ability. Like I said I do not own any test kits at all and I do well enough. Just my two cents here but I really think just sticking to the basics will help these folks out a lot more and not chase anyone away.
A person's water condition can greatly help us find out what the problem is. You can infer a lot when someone tells you what their ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels are. Whether or not, the tank has cycled, whether or not his/her tank is overstocked, underfiltered, or if not enough water changes are done.
It is difficult to suggest a solution when you do not know what the cause is. Treat the cause and you will never have the symptoms. Knowing the cause of the problem _will_ decrease the likelyhood of one of us giving the wrong advice.
I have to agree though, in most cases, pH and water hardness generally has nothing to do with fish death's... but everything else (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) does.
-Richer
It is difficult to suggest a solution when you do not know what the cause is. Treat the cause and you will never have the symptoms. Knowing the cause of the problem _will_ decrease the likelyhood of one of us giving the wrong advice.
I have to agree though, in most cases, pH and water hardness generally has nothing to do with fish death's... but everything else (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) does.
-Richer
Shiftaltumlock
No mater where ya go, there ya are
10-4
I as the person to give me as much information about the tank as possible. You have to know every parameter in some cases. If this is too confusing to the person asking the questions, then they can just say so and I would try to come up with a logical solution at that point. It is pretty much the same thing in my job. I work on computers. I ask the user to give all info they can on the problem. I then decide what info is usefull or not. Sometimes it can be something bizare that leeds to the problem. So knowing all we can gives us the best shot at fixing it.
Umm! I think someone said this allready, but here it is again.
I as the person to give me as much information about the tank as possible. You have to know every parameter in some cases. If this is too confusing to the person asking the questions, then they can just say so and I would try to come up with a logical solution at that point. It is pretty much the same thing in my job. I work on computers. I ask the user to give all info they can on the problem. I then decide what info is usefull or not. Sometimes it can be something bizare that leeds to the problem. So knowing all we can gives us the best shot at fixing it.
Umm! I think someone said this allready, but here it is again.
Originally posted by Darkangel :
. I really doubt that PH has killed a lot of fish in peoples tanks.
I think Darkangel's right on here. But if you hear that tapwater of 7.6 drops to 5.6 in the aquarium, you have a handle on how to help. Sometimes it's hard to resist adding, "Ammonium converting to ammonia as pH rises is the hidden "pH shock" stresser" because others are listening in too, and who can tell which chance remark will ring a bell?
People who ask this question really do not want a lesson in chemistry. They want simple answers with things they can do.
Darkangel, sometimes there's a single simple point in the tank's chemistry that can be explained in two sentences. If a poster doesn't know why they're being told to do thus-and-so it's all unnecessarily mysterious.
As far as judging a persons skill level the question and information provided are a pretty good indication of their ability... I really think just sticking to the basics will help these folks out a lot more and not chase anyone away.
Absolutely agree. Sometimes the simple threads spin out into complications, after the basic advice has been given, because we do have to be entertained and learn from each other's give-and-take too.
. I really doubt that PH has killed a lot of fish in peoples tanks.
I think Darkangel's right on here. But if you hear that tapwater of 7.6 drops to 5.6 in the aquarium, you have a handle on how to help. Sometimes it's hard to resist adding, "Ammonium converting to ammonia as pH rises is the hidden "pH shock" stresser" because others are listening in too, and who can tell which chance remark will ring a bell?
People who ask this question really do not want a lesson in chemistry. They want simple answers with things they can do.
Darkangel, sometimes there's a single simple point in the tank's chemistry that can be explained in two sentences. If a poster doesn't know why they're being told to do thus-and-so it's all unnecessarily mysterious.
As far as judging a persons skill level the question and information provided are a pretty good indication of their ability... I really think just sticking to the basics will help these folks out a lot more and not chase anyone away.
Absolutely agree. Sometimes the simple threads spin out into complications, after the basic advice has been given, because we do have to be entertained and learn from each other's give-and-take too.
i always suggest a fish store for getting tested and avoiding buying things i thought.......
alot of times it is the stupid little answers that solve the problems, up until that point it is all just wild shots in the dark. ph can be HUGE indicator in tank stocking and maintenance, not to mention ph shock problems. ammonia directly relates to the toxins present and if there is too much stuff going on like decayed material. nitrite is the hardest growing bacteria and occasionally this issue needs to be addressed...... personally those are the important 3 for me.
would you buy any other animal without knowing how to care for it? i think that question sums it up.... other animals have other defenses.... fish don't, they just die. never see a fish peeing on the carpet because it can't go in the tank because of excess wastes........... a fish cant move away from it's wastes...... you'll never see a dog laying in its mess, unless it's REAL sick.............
personally i almost never use my test kits, but generally alot of problems relate to those 3 tests. sure you could just recommend a water change....... but how much without concentrations of toxins? and what if that water changes alters the ph drastically, especially with ammonia present.......? oops, sorry, i killed your fish.
tests are very important for new people i think. it is something they need to know and helps them understand it alot.
alot of times it is the stupid little answers that solve the problems, up until that point it is all just wild shots in the dark. ph can be HUGE indicator in tank stocking and maintenance, not to mention ph shock problems. ammonia directly relates to the toxins present and if there is too much stuff going on like decayed material. nitrite is the hardest growing bacteria and occasionally this issue needs to be addressed...... personally those are the important 3 for me.
would you buy any other animal without knowing how to care for it? i think that question sums it up.... other animals have other defenses.... fish don't, they just die. never see a fish peeing on the carpet because it can't go in the tank because of excess wastes........... a fish cant move away from it's wastes...... you'll never see a dog laying in its mess, unless it's REAL sick.............
personally i almost never use my test kits, but generally alot of problems relate to those 3 tests. sure you could just recommend a water change....... but how much without concentrations of toxins? and what if that water changes alters the ph drastically, especially with ammonia present.......? oops, sorry, i killed your fish.
tests are very important for new people i think. it is something they need to know and helps them understand it alot.
I agree that to the beginner testing water parameters can be quite scary or daunting. But in truth fish dying is usually almost 100% linked to a water parameter. Perhaps when LFS sell an aquarium package they should include a basic water testing kit.
eg. Eye problems are often caused by ammonia. If someone can tell us they have high ammonia then the board can then direct them to dealing with ammonia issues. Also outbreaks of death through dropsy can be linked to high nitrites. If a beginner can tell us they have high nitrites and deaths, then the board can help them with nitrite managment.
I know some testing kits are complex. But there are a lot more user friendly color matching ones on the market at an acceptable cost as opposed to the cost of restocking a tank.
eg. Eye problems are often caused by ammonia. If someone can tell us they have high ammonia then the board can then direct them to dealing with ammonia issues. Also outbreaks of death through dropsy can be linked to high nitrites. If a beginner can tell us they have high nitrites and deaths, then the board can help them with nitrite managment.
I know some testing kits are complex. But there are a lot more user friendly color matching ones on the market at an acceptable cost as opposed to the cost of restocking a tank.